***Official Soccer Thread***

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tredadda

But it doesn't though. How long has the WNBA been around? Has their "success" fed into the popularity of the NBA at all? 20+ years and they still need the NBA to subsidize them. That should say a lot right there. Growing women's sports is not as easy as you make it.

Also when you say equal pay, what do you support? Equal salary? Or equal % of revenue? In other words if the men get 15% of the revenue they generate, do the women also get 15% of the revenue they generate?

The wnba is a shit product. I don't think you can make the same comparison. They haven't made money on their own. Uswnt has and a lot of it. Very big difference. There is nobody in the wnba even a fraction as popular as Alex morgan. Maybe Caitlin Clark is up and coming, but I find it really hard to believe that doesn't fizzle a lot once she goes pro. Maybe it's just me but I also don't see a ton of crossover. I think girls and women would rather watch better mens pros play basketball. Lots of women really love womens soccer . With the growth of women's soccer you've also seen an explosion of young girls playing soccer. That absolutely grows the US fan base that, let's be honest, views men's soccer as a side sport whereas for women it is THE sport. The wnba has tried to argue that but women's soccer's impact is exponentially bigger.

The wnba has failed despite nba owners obligated to run it at a loss. Women's soccer is the exact opposite. Arguably their earnings were funneled into growing men's MLS and development programs with little going into their own pro league. I get why but the resentment is understandable. Point being, the wnba has tried to make money but can't. Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention or investment.

For the record I dont think there needs to be equal pay. I also don't think any of it matters. This is a side bonus for men making a bazillion dollars in the pros. It is for now the main source of income for women. That's why the men didn't throw a fit.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

The wnba is a shit product. I don't think you can make the same comparison. They haven't made money on their own. Uswnt has and a lot of it. Very big difference. There is nobody in the wnba even a fraction as popular as Alex morgan. Maybe Caitlin Clark is up and coming, but I find it really hard to believe that doesn't fizzle a lot once she goes pro. Maybe it's just me but I also don't see a ton of crossover. I think girls and women would rather watch better mens pros play basketball. Lots of women really love womens soccer . With the growth of women's soccer you've also seen an explosion of young girls playing soccer. That absolutely grows the US fan base that, let's be honest, views men's soccer as a side sport whereas for women it is THE sport. The wnba has tried to argue that but women's soccer's impact is exponentially bigger.

The wnba has failed despite nba owners obligated to run it at a loss. Women's soccer is the exact opposite. Arguably their earnings were funneled into growing men's MLS and development programs with little going into their own pro league. I get why but the resentment is understandable. Point being, the wnba has tried to make money but can't. Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention or investment.

For the record I dont think there needs to be equal pay. I also don't think any of it matters. This is a side bonus for men making a bazillion dollars in the pros. It is for now the main source of income for women. That's why the men didn't throw a fit.

Comparing the USWNT and the WNBA is not a good comparison and I can agree with you on that. But I also think that a lot of the USWNT's popularity is based on national pride and them being (up until this WWC) the best in the world. People rally behind and support it, to which we both agree. Once they stop and go to their pro leagues in the US, people forget about them. The same people watching the USWNT rarely watch the professional leagues as attendance numbers reflect.

Again, this could all change by people actually putting their money into it and actually support it. It's not some devious plot to hold down women's athletics. The money is not invested because there is viewed as no positive ROI for it. It's much easier to rally around a team representing a nation than local professional teams. Heck people who don't give two whits about soccer still watch when the USMNT plays in the WC.

If money was funneled into the MLS, there was a precedent for it before and incentive to grow it. The fact that the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, and men's collegiate sports revolving around those pro sports have been a success while zero women's sports can say that (although the women's NCAA tourney this year seemed to do well). There is zero precedence to think funneling money into women's pro leagues will grow it and make it a money winner........zero.

Your argument that "Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention" makes no sense. If no one is paying attention then it must not be as popular as you claim. To think the men's team just agreed to this equal pay arrangement without throwing fits shows a complete lack of awareness. Opposing it would have been suicide. And perhaps the men make more internationally, especially the elite players, but your average MLS player does not make a bajillion dollars.

At the end of the day I would love to see the women's game grow, but I have my doubts it can/will until proven wrong as history says it will not.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tredadda

Comparing the USWNT and the WNBA is not a good comparison and I can agree with you on that. But I also think that a lot of the USWNT's popularity is based on national pride and them being (up until this WWC) the best in the world. People rally behind and support it, to which we both agree. Once they stop and go to their pro leagues in the US, people forget about them. The same people watching the USWNT rarely watch the professional leagues as attendance numbers reflect.

Again, this could all change by people actually putting their money into it and actually support it. It's not some devious plot to hold down women's athletics. The money is not invested because there is viewed as no positive ROI for it. It's much easier to rally around a team representing a nation than local professional teams. Heck people who don't give two whits about soccer still watch when the USMNT plays in the WC.

If money was funneled into the MLS, there was a precedent for it before and incentive to grow it. The fact that the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, and men's collegiate sports revolving around those pro sports have been a success while zero women's sports can say that (although the women's NCAA tourney this year seemed to do well). There is zero precedence to think funneling money into women's pro leagues will grow it and make it a money winner........zero.

Your argument that "Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention" makes no sense. If no one is paying attention then it must not be as popular as you claim. To think the men's team just agreed to this equal pay arrangement without throwing fits shows a complete lack of awareness. Opposing it would have been suicide. And perhaps the men make more internationally, especially the elite players, but your average MLS player does not make a bajillion dollars.

At the end of the day I would love to see the women's game grow, but I have my doubts it can/will until proven wrong as history says it will not.

Money was funneled into the MLS for good reason. Of course the usmnt is #1 priority and it took an all in effort for decades to get it off the ground. I'm not saying it's an injustice. It was the right thing to do. But the women's pro league wasn't prioritized not because it wasn't interesting but because there was a red hot fire to triple down on a ginormous decades long effort to built the foundation for American men's soccer. That includes using women's earnings and pumping that into MLS. That meant pumping all public funds on MLS stadiums and pumping all marketing into MLS.

Now that infrastructure is built and MLS is self sustaining. Women's success helped get MLS off the ground, so why not return the favor? Most of the core usmnt roster plays in Europe on multimillion dollar contracts where women rely solely on US soccer pay. When I say women's soccer hasn't gotten attention. I don't mean people don't care.. The US has done a great job promoting the national team but They put zero into women's pro league infrastructure. That's changing. And the game has changed. US can't just underinvest because they're the only country that cares. Now they're having to compete with European leagues who are poaching them with better salary. US soccer needs to invest to maintain dominance. But now they compete for a way bigger purse because the international scale is growing rapidly

I think you're speaking to more a self fulfilling prophecy that people don't want to invest in women's soccer because it isn't popular, and it isn't popular because nobody is investing in it. Thats exactly what Europe said. It wasn't until 2019 til they took it seriously. You know how many attended their women's euro league final live? 91k. I'm guessing they're kicking themselves for waiting so long to care about it. I don't think it's fair to judge women's pro leagues until you earnestly try. But there are plenty of signs that it will thrive. International popularity is booming, sponsors are raking in tons of cash and uswnt has been popular even without infrastructure. And as the women's game grows, mens soccer benefits too. Why wouldn't they work together to grow the game so that both pots can be benefit?

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Money was funneled into the MLS for good reason. Of course the usmnt is #1 priority and it took an all in effort for decades to get it off the ground. I'm not saying it's an injustice. It was the right thing to do. But the women's pro league wasn't prioritized not because it wasn't interesting but because there was a red hot fire to triple down on a ginormous decades long effort to built the foundation for American men's soccer. That includes using women's earnings and pumping that into MLS. That meant pumping all public funds on MLS stadiums and pumping all marketing into MLS.

Now that infrastructure is built and MLS is self sustaining. Women's success helped get MLS off the ground, so why not return the favor? Most of the core usmnt roster plays in Europe on multimillion dollar contracts where women rely solely on US soccer pay. When I say women's soccer hasn't gotten attention. I don't mean people don't care.. The US has done a great job promoting the national team but They put zero into women's pro league infrastructure. That's changing. And the game has changed. US can't just underinvest because they're the only country that cares. Now they're having to compete with European leagues who are poaching them with better salary. US soccer needs to invest to maintain dominance. But now they compete for a way bigger purse because the international scale is growing rapidly

I think you're speaking to more a self fulfilling prophecy that people don't want to invest in women's soccer because it isn't popular, and it isn't popular because nobody is investing in it. Thats exactly what Europe said. It wasn't until 2019 til they took it seriously. You know how many attended their women's euro league final live? 91k. I'm guessing they're kicking themselves for waiting so long to care about it. I don't think it's fair to judge women's pro leagues until you earnestly try. But there are plenty of signs that it will thrive. International popularity is booming, sponsors are raking in tons of cash and uswnt has been popular even without infrastructure. And as the women's game grows, mens soccer benefits too. Why wouldn't they work together to grow the game so that both pots can be benefit?

I am not disagreeing with you that it took time for the MLS to take off, nor can I disagree that it was women's earnings that were used to prop up the MLS (precisely because I don't know enough about it to confirm or deny what you state).

I am not against helping prop up a women's pro league either. I question how successful it would be long term. There is zero precedence showing that it will and I still think you are not grasping the difference between a national team that people will rally behind and support due to national pride and local teams. Just because the USWNT is successful does not mean that their success will carry forward. We can debate why women's sports are money losers all day, but the reality is they are. Maybe (and I don't know for sure) women's college basketball is self funding.

Some of the USMNT players get big contracts in Europe, many do not though. They rely on MLS salaries which are far less in most cases. We live in an era of the internet, it is easy to follow almost anything now. People are not ignorant of local teams, they just don't show up in numbers reflective of the USWNT's popularity. This again goes back to the national support vs local support.

European teams have and for the foreseeable future will continue to poach the best American talent and the state of women's soccer won't impact that even in the slightest. Soccer here is arguably team sport #5 on the pecking list, and unless that changes we will continue to lose the best players. Think Japanese baseball players. The best in Japan always move to MLB if given the chance as the best of the best play here.

Now I am not judging women's pro leagues. I have a passing interest in soccer. I will watch a game or two now and then, so I am not in the "women's soccer sucks" category. I keep beating this horse or "Bronco", but attendance numbers and history do not lie. There are enough people out there who can grow and sustain the game......they just aren't. It's not a self fulfilling prophecy to say that the investment isn't there due to a lack of popularity. If women's soccer stadiums were selling out or being filled above capacity, the incentive to build bigger ones would be there. Media would line up to stream or broadcast their games and advertisers would line up to get ads and endorsements.

Lastly, using what works in Europe as a gauge for what will work here does not fly. The US is not Europe, especially when it comes to sports. Could pro women's sports leagues succeed? Possibly. But I was born and raised in Missouri, so "show me".

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tredadda

I am not disagreeing with you that it took time for the MLS to take off, nor can I disagree that it was women's earnings that were used to prop up the MLS (precisely because I don't know enough about it to confirm or deny what you state).

I am not against helping prop up a women's pro league either. I question how successful it would be long term. There is zero precedence showing that it will and I still think you are not grasping the difference between a national team that people will rally behind and support due to national pride and local teams. Just because the USWNT is successful does not mean that their success will carry forward. We can debate why women's sports are money losers all day, but the reality is they are. Maybe (and I don't know for sure) women's college basketball is self funding.

Some of the USMNT players get big contracts in Europe, many do not though. They rely on MLS salaries which are far less in most cases. We live in an era of the internet, it is easy to follow almost anything now. People are not ignorant of local teams, they just don't show up in numbers reflective of the USWNT's popularity. This again goes back to the national support vs local support.

European teams have and for the foreseeable future will continue to poach the best American talent and the state of women's soccer won't impact that even in the slightest. Soccer here is arguably team sport #5 on the pecking list, and unless that changes we will continue to lose the best players. Think Japanese baseball players. The best in Japan always move to MLB if given the chance as the best of the best play here.

Now I am not judging women's pro leagues. I have a passing interest in soccer. I will watch a game or two now and then, so I am not in the "women's soccer sucks" category. I keep beating this horse or "Bronco", but attendance numbers and history do not lie. There are enough people out there who can grow and sustain the game......they just aren't. It's not a self fulfilling prophecy to say that the investment isn't there due to a lack of popularity. If women's soccer stadiums were selling out or being filled above capacity, the incentive to build bigger ones would be there. Media would line up to stream or broadcast their games and advertisers would line up to get ads and endorsements.

Lastly, using what works in Europe as a gauge for what will work here does not fly. The US is not Europe, especially when it comes to sports. Could pro women's sports leagues succeed? Possibly. But I was born and raised in Missouri, so "show me".

Nah, appreciate the discussion. I get where you're coming from and you make lots of good points. Not knocking you at all for seeing it as a risk. It is.

I just dont think it's fair to suggest that the league should thrive without investment and that investors aren't investing because they don't see potential. You have to have stadiums in good markets with good promos and experiences, and then you need expansion to build scale for better TV and sponsorship deals. It's an unusual situation where the balls out urgency to build MLS made that very challenging. So over the next year's we'll see where it goes now that they're serious about trying. That's a better benchmark than the past. Initial results are promising. International popularity is growing exponentially which means more money, sponsorships and prizes. Newer markets are pulling 15-20k per game which is way more than the highest wnba market (and they've been actually trying). Kc current is building their own stadium. And probably the biggest litmus test, two expansion teams are paying a $50m expansion fee which is really substantial. It's just so different from the wnba which was given time and investment and flat out failed. Or us softball which was never even popular on the national stage. There's teeth to this one.

I also think the situation is way more favorable for the US. There's no reason why we couldn't be a premier women's soccer market. Unlike men's, there's little competition for the best athletes. It is THE sport right now for girls. And there's no competition with other women's leagues which have proven to be totally unviable. And I don't think there's as much competition for men's sports as we think as their market is very different.