The 4-3 Under and Current Personnel

[11Chiefs]

Here are some thoughts about transitioning to 4-3. I like the player comparisons. Let these guys play in a scheme and position where they can succeed. My only question... can KPass adjust and find a role.

The 4-3 discussion deserves it's own thread. #megathreadssuck

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/...personnel-fits

Spoiler!

With the hiring of new defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, the Chiefs are likely seeing a switch from their 3-4 defense to the 4-3. That’s caused a lot of consternation amongst Chiefs fans, but where are the biggest problems for the Chiefs in this switch?

I’m going to give you a quick-and-dirty look at where some players can fit, position responsibilities and who are the winners and losers of the formation switch.

The 4-3 variant that Spagnuolo chooses to use is similar to that utilized by his mentor and former Andy Reid defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, called the 4-3 Under. The 4-3 Under front shares quite a few similarities to that of the Chiefs 3-4 defense, making this transition easier.

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

3 Technique - Lining up to the same side as the weak-side defensive end, the 3-tech is a penetrating player capable of beating a guard one on one. This position is typically a player that has a solid get-off, can knife to either side and has the speed to attack the run from the back side. Once again, an easy fit — and potentially a better fit in the 3-4 base defense — for Chris Jones. Jones can utilize his speed and strength to collapse on the run, get after the passer, and find plenty of great matchups one on one in a 4-3 under front.

1 Technique - Opposite of the 3 technique, the 1 technique is typically a 2-gap player, getting doubles against the strong-side guard and center, freeing up the linebackers behind him to make stops. This is usually filled by a player in an “under tackle” or “nose guard” mold, which the Chiefs have in Derrick Nnadi and Xavier Williams. Both will have to command a double team to keep the linebackers clean, and both should be plenty capable.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

SAM linebacker - When most think of the 4-3 defense, they think of three off-ball linebackers on the second level behind four defensive linemen. With the 4-3 Under, one of those off-ball linebackers shifts down close to the line of scrimmage — still standing — and can rush the passer or drop into coverage to carry a tight end to the safeties in the second level. During Spagnuolo’s second run as a defensive coordinator with the New York Giants, he acquired Olivier Vernon, who played this role regularly. Vernon is a large outside linebacker with limited coverage ability but was able to defend the run very well off of the tight end and could find a lot of success as a pass rusher standing up. If that sounds familiar to you, it should — it’s quite similar to what Justin Houston has offered the Chiefs recently. Houston would be a very solid fit in this role should the Chiefs retain him.

Mike linebacker - Shading between the 1-tech and the 3-tech at the second level, the Mike linebacker’s responsibility in the 4-3 under are to cover a short hook zone in the center of the field and to attack the run. With his limited coverage ability shown this season — as well as a much more familiar four-man front in front of him, like he saw in Dallas — Anthony Hitchens is a solid fit in this role. He’ll be less exposed in coverage, can set the fronts, and attack downhill more readily instead of being asked to cover multiple gaps as the weak-side linebacker in the Chiefs 3-4.

Will linebacker - Sitting behind the weak-side defensive end and the 3-tech, the will linebacker is tasked with keying off of the running back in the run game and kicking out into man coverage or the flats against the pass. This will linebacker is typically kept clean by the defensive linemen in front of him, allowing him to attack as unimpeded to the running back as he can from the weak side of the formation. As a good coverage linebacker and a guy that struggles to stack and shed blockers, Dorian O’Daniel might gain the biggest advantage in a scheme switch. The Chiefs could find themselves in a great position to utilize last year’s third-round pick.

When the Chiefs change to their sub package — something that every NFL team runs as their primary package — this evolves easily. The Chiefs can remove the 1-tech, shift the strong-side defensive end inside, and bring the SAM down — a 4-2 front similar to that they’ve used in the past — or they can remove the strong-side defensive end and stay big in the middle to protect against the run, still as a 4-2 front.

Winners
NFL: Kansas City Chiefs at Denver Broncos
Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
Breeland Speaks is a big winner here, having a true position on the field. His ability to kick inside in the sub package and play the run in the base are hugely beneficial for the Chiefs. Dorian O’Daniel and Anthony Hitchens would be in significantly more comfortable roles for the style of play they are capable of, and that should only improve the Chiefs run defense and coverage ability. Chris Jones is also a big winner, seeing more one-on-ones in the base defense and he too could find snaps in Speaks’ strong-side defensive end role if the Chiefs wanted to develop a more penetrating front on some plays.

Losers
Reggie Ragland simply doesn’t have a home in a 4-3 Under. He isn’t strong enough to set an edge or rushing the passer to play the way Spagnuolo utilizes his SAM, and he’s not a better option at the Mike than Anthony Hitchens. Tanoh Kpassagnon is also not a great option at SAM due to his run defense, and not a good enough pass rusher as a LEO to come off the other EDGE.

With the Chiefs having to make some serious decisions at pass rusher — Justin Houston’s bloated contract and Dee Ford’s impending free agency — they’ll have to decide if they need to keep both, or which position they’ll have to fill this offseason. While the LEO position is arguably the most important in the front, the skillset of the SAM is a difficult one to find.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by JakeF

Why would you put Houston at any other position when DE fits him so well? Houston provides a pass rush without blitzing, something that every Defense needs. Houston and Jones bring a constant pass rush with no need to expose passing lanes by blitzing someone from the backend.

I would like to say the same about Dee Ford but he isn't physical enough to set the edge and play the run.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

[wazu]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

If you put Ford at DE.....teams are going to run over him.

As opposed to the way we stuffed the run in 2018?

[bowener]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

Restructure Houston.
Tag and trade Ford.
Sign Trey Flowers.

Speaks - Nnadi - Jones - Flowers

Houston - Hitchens - DOD

Whether we stayed in a 3-4 or switched to a 4-3.....we'd still need CBs and safeties.

I'm wondering if Landon Collins wants to play for Spags again.

Originally Posted by O.city

The thing is, you can clear up so much money by letting Houston and berry go and not tagging ford

The berry thing probably can’t happen but the other two maybe

Why would you let any of them go? Berry costs a fortune to cut loose, and you could easily trade both Houston and Ford to avoid the dead money.

BUT why the **** would you trade Houston or Ford if you don't have a respectable replacement ready to go? Unless the Chiefs can get a first-round pick in the top 15 for each player, there is no reason to send them packing. You won't find a replacement for either of them on the cheap with as much ability and experience.

I'm calling bullshit on all these major concerns with who lines up where and if they can. Yes, there will be pains as they all learn different responsibilities, but the defense is going to be running in a 2 or 4 front nickel most of the time like they already did. Ford and Houston will be DEs or upright LBs at the line, and Nnadi and Jones will be the DL.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

Restructure Houston.
Tag and trade Ford.
Sign Trey Flowers.

Speaks - Nnadi - Jones - Flowers

Houston - Hitchens - DOD

Whether we stayed in a 3-4 or switched to a 4-3.....we'd still need CBs and safeties.

We have a pretty good idea of what spagnuolos top priority will be. Out of 10 drafts as DC for the giants, half of the first and second round picks went to a DB. Not to mention they signed janoris Jenkins to a huge deal. Our secondary is going to see a huge facelift and I'm definitely cool with that.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by bowener

I'm wondering if Landon Collins wants to play for Spags again.



Why would you let any of them go? Berry costs a fortune to cut loose, and you could easily trade both Houston and Ford to avoid the dead money.

BUT why the **** would you trade Houston or Ford if you don't have a respectable replacement ready to go? Unless the Chiefs can get a first-round pick in the top 15 for each player, there is no reason to send them packing. You won't find a replacement for either of them on the cheap with as much ability and experience.

I'm calling bullshit on all these major concerns with who lines up where and if they can. Yes, there will be pains as they all learn different responsibilities, but the defense is going to be running in a 2 or 4 front nickel most of the time like they already did. Ford and Houston will be DEs or upright LBs at the line, and Nnadi and Jones will be the DL.

Because the money would allow you to go get someone else or multiple other guys that may fit more what you want

[The Franchise]

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

Maybe it's just me....but I think Houston is a perfect fit for that role.

[bowener]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

This is an even better fit for Justin Houston than it is for Speaks. Just because that says "this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability" doesn't mean they can't or won't have pass rush ability. Instead this means that Houston gets to be the primary stud on the field that will be fully utilized. He won't drop into coverage. Instead, he will stop the run, contain, string out the play, or pass rush. This is a much better position for Houston. Speaks can rotate when Houston needs a breather or when Houston kicks over to the other DE when Ford needs a breather.

A 4-3 with two legitimate pass rushing DEs would be incredibly dangerous for any team that falls behind by 10 or more points.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

Maybe it's just me....but I think Houston is a perfect fit for that role.

I have no problem with Houston at LEO if we trade Ford or let him walk.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by arrowheadnation

Wasn't the reason that Ragland was moved by Buffalo in the first place because he didn't fit their 4-3 scheme?

Ragland was drafted because Rex Ryan begged for him. Nfl defenses are trying to get faster to account for the spread. Most 3-4s have an undersized ILB. I don't think Ragland will get many sniffs when we get rid of them. We need odaniel to get the program quick. Maybe scheme change will do Terrance Smith some good but he's always seemed pretty limited to me.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

Man, I feel the vast majority of commenters didn't read the article. There is no way you put Speaks at LEO. You need someone fast who can rush the passer. Go back and watch the Seahawks in their LOB years. Chris Clemons and Bruce Irvin played the LEO for them and were similar in size to Dee Ford.

https://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/1...e-leo-position

Since the Leo plays from a looser alignment and operates in space, he doesn't need to have great size. Chris Clemons is listed at only 6'3 and 254 pounds. Bruce Irvin is an even smaller 6'3, 248.

If they don't want to pay Ford, the Chiefs will need a FA or draft pick for this spot. I really don't see KPass or Speaks being able to play it. I think KPass will be released or traded as he doesn't really have a spot in this defense.

EDIT: Ok, I could see Houston playing at LEO but then that leaves a hole at SAM. If they could get Wright from the Seahwaks, that would be perfect because that is where he played frequently.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Man, I feel the vast majority of commenters didn't read the article. There is no way you put Speaks at LEO. You need someone fast who can rush the passer. Go back and watch the Seahawks in their LOB years. Chris Clemons and Bruce Irvin played the LEO for them and were similar in size to Dee Ford.

https://www.bigcatcountry.com/2013/1...e-leo-position



If they don't want to pay Ford, the Chiefs will need a FA or draft pick for this spot. I really don't see KPass or Speaks being able to play it. I think KPass will be released or traded as he doesn't really have a spot in this defense.

EDIT: Ok, I could see Houston playing at LEO but then that leaves a hole at SAM. If they could get Wright from the Seahwaks, that would be perfect because that is where he played frequently.

We’re talking about Speaks at SDE not LEO.

[O.city]

Why could ford not play the Leo?

[bowener]

Originally Posted by staylor26

I have no problem with Houston at LEO if we trade Ford or let him walk.

Why do people keep saying this? You never let him walk. There is no scenario where the Chiefs should do anything but tag him. They hold all the cards and can trade him for a very good draft pick.

I assume Arizona will be going back to the 3-4 this season and last I remember is they need a pass rusher. The Packers are absolutely desperate for a pass rusher.

Idk if the Packers would give up pick 12 for Ford, but that price feels about right.

edit: If Chiefs got pick 12 they might get lucky enough to grab Greedy Williams if he slides out of the top 10.

edit2: If they could move back Deionte Thompson would make me very happy. Then they take BDPA at 29.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by bowener

Why do people keep saying this? You never let him walk. There is no scenario where the Chiefs should do anything but tag him. They hold all the cards and can trade him for a very good draft pick.

I assume Arizona will be going back to the 3-4 this season and last I remember is they need a pass rusher. The Packers are absolutely desperate for a pass rusher.

Idk if the Packers would give up pick 12 for Ford, but that price feels about right.

Pick 12 isn't happening for Ford. I'd say that a realistic pick would be in the middle to lower 2nd round or top of the 3rd round.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by O.city

Why could ford not play the Leo?

Could he? Possibly.

But he has knocks on him:

1. Injury history.
2. Cost and needing a new deal.
3. Lack of run defense. It's gotten better but it's still a weakness of his.