Welp. Looks like we need a RB.

[KC Hawks]

So who looks good in this upcoming draft?

[UChieffyBugger]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

What part of "This team presently runs the ball more effectively than the teams you're asking us to emulate" is getting past you here?

We aren't PRESENTLY a 1-trick pony. The Chiefs are, right this very second, better at running the ball than the Seahawks and Ravens.

You 'don't agree' because you're not paying attention to any of the arguments being presented. You seem to believe that he fact that the Ravens ran it often means that they ran it well. And at least when you get to the Patriots you're now starting to get closer to the argument that people before you have made and made far better.

This team can presently run the football well. And if you go looking to replace Williams its exclusively because you want to run between the tackles - because nobody available is going to be an appreciable upgrade from Williams off-tackle or out of the backfield. So you're saying we should spend significant assets to upgrade on a solid RB so we can run a power run game that simply cannot work from the shotgun.

So now you're also asking us to scrap our 'base' formation and the shotgun/spread concepts that the rest of the NFL is copying as fast as they can see them. I'm sure it's because they're silly ideas.

You're simply not paying attention to anything Andy Reid wants to do or anything the Kansas City offense is built to do.

Lol this guy said "I'm not paying attention", then has the nerve to claim that "I want the system scrapped"? ARE YOU FRIKKING STUPID? WHY ARE YOU FAILING TO COMPREHEND THE PHRASE "TIME OF POSSESSION"? And I don't give a damn about running the ball "well", HOW ABOUT WE RUN THE BALL "GREAT" with an ability to take time off the clock? Am I not allowed to hope for that because you folks insist Williams is the next "Barry Sanders" and "we're a pass first team so we're not allowed to even THINK about time of possesion"? Get real.

[UChieffyBugger]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Is that some kind of clever joke or something?

You said you don't want a rb, and have said it a million times already. So yes, you are indeed a one trick pony with broken record tendencies. Just my opinion.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by UChieffyBugger

Lol this guy said "I'm not paying attention", then has the nerve to claim that "I want the system scrapped"? ARE YOU FRIKKING STUPID? WHY ARE YOU FAILING TO COMPREHEND THE PHRASE "TIME OF POSSESSION"? And I don't give a damn about running the ball "well", HOW ABOUT WE RUN THE BALL "GREAT" with an ability to take time off the clock? Am I not allowed to hope for that because you folks insist Williams is the next "Barry Sanders" and "we're a pass first team so we're not allowed to even THINK about time of possesion"? Get real.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by UChieffyBugger

You said you don't want a rb, and have said it a million times already. So yes, you are indeed a one trick pony with broken record tendencies. Just my opinion.

Yeah that's not quite what that saying means, really.

Ok, man. I'm going to explain this to you in detail, no snark, just in detail. I doubt it's going to matter at all, because you're personally invested in a specific narrative, and you strike me as someone that's not going to change their mind regardless of what anyone says.

Ok. Andy Reid's offensive system starts first and foremost with his offensive line scheme. He looks for certain attributes; namely, quickness, lateral agility, and fundamentally sound technicians. He does so often knowing he's paying a price in raw power. That's because he likes to trap, and pull, and cross block. We rarely line up, man up, and try to shove a defensive line backwards. It's why we don't do as well in short yardage and goal-line unless we do trap, pull, and cross block. Things happen faster in short yardage, so we don't do as well.

The strength of the concept is that you get a defense on their heels, unsure of where you're going and what you're doing and by the time they figure it out, you're already into the second level.

The downside is that when it comes to just plain old power football, you're often not very good at it.

The fact is that Reid ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS has RB's that put up big numbers. Going all the way back to Westbrook. A RB in Reid's scheme needs quickness; must be a good receiver, must be able to pass block, and then yes, must be able to run the ball. BUT-it's not a power running scheme. It's not built that way. It's built on misdirection. WHO the back is matters much less than WHAT is happening on the line. This is why Damien Williams can step in for Kareem Hunt and there is zero drop-off in any measurable statistic. It's also why a Laveon Bell is a terrible, terrible fit in this offense.

Reid has also said, and this is fundamental West Coast Offense going back to Bill Walsh-he considers screens and dumps to the flat as an extension of the running game. They're elongated hand-offs. They're running plays. Consider them 'toss' plays if you will. Reid literally does, and does not care if you see it that way. It's a fundamental part of what he considers 'the running game.'

Forcing the defense to cover sideline to sideline is a HUGE part of the overall offensive concept. These plays are essentially really wide 'toss-sweeps'.

So, we've looked at the reason WHY we sometimes struggle with running the ball in short yardage and goal-line situations. Summary-it's not who's carrying the rock. It's that the line is built for other skill-sets.

We've also covered that Reid considers screens and short dump-offs to be part of the running game, as 'extended hand-offs'. You can disagree, but this is literally a fundamental part of his offensive concept.

So-when people say, "You want to change the scheme", they're right.

Because you're wanting to change things tendencies that literally would require changing offensive linemen to straight ahead blocking maulers (Schwartz is really the only guy we have that would fit that)

and you're saying you want to run the ball between the tackles rather than screens and short passes to the flat (which is contrary to the entire idea of the West Coast Offense in any of it's incarnations. The main idea of which is to force a defense to cover every inch of the field at all times.)

And furthermore, you believe that the 'problem' such as it is (or is not to be statistically accurate) is that we lack a quality running back. Hopefully I've explained that Andy Reid has ALWAYS had production from the RB position and always will; it's one of his hallmarks.

And as for me, I'm not saying 'I don't want a running back' I'm saying I don't want to draft one high or sign a big name one in free agency. I say Damien Williams played very, very well in extended snaps; and Darrel Williams played well in less extended snaps. You also have Ware and West, who while they're not all-pro's, only a fool would say they're not totally excellent 3rd string running backs that already know your entire offense and can be retained cheaply if you want to.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

[Chris Meck]

hmm. Okay, well, I gave it a shot.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

hmm. Okay, well, I gave it a shot.

After his last 'volley' I realized we're clearly wasting our time.

You made a game effort, but it was wasted on someone who refuses to understand it and prefers traffic in straw men.

C'est la vie - I watched Battlefield Earth once and it was both more time consuming and less productive than your post so I can't judge...

[UChieffyBugger]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Yeah that's not quite what that saying means, really.

Ok, man. I'm going to explain this to you in detail, no snark, just in detail. I doubt it's going to matter at all, because you're personally invested in a specific narrative, and you strike me as someone that's not going to change their mind regardless of what anyone says.

Ok. Andy Reid's offensive system starts first and foremost with his offensive line scheme. He looks for certain attributes; namely, quickness, lateral agility, and fundamentally sound technicians. He does so often knowing he's paying a price in raw power. That's because he likes to trap, and pull, and cross block. We rarely line up, man up, and try to shove a defensive line backwards. It's why we don't do as well in short yardage and goal-line unless we do trap, pull, and cross block. Things happen faster in short yardage, so we don't do as well.

The strength of the concept is that you get a defense on their heels, unsure of where you're going and what you're doing and by the time they figure it out, you're already into the second level.

The downside is that when it comes to just plain old power football, you're often not very good at it.

The fact is that Reid ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS has RB's that put up big numbers. Going all the way back to Westbrook. A RB in Reid's scheme needs quickness; must be a good receiver, must be able to pass block, and then yes, must be able to run the ball. BUT-it's not a power running scheme. It's not built that way. It's built on misdirection. WHO the back is matters much less than WHAT is happening on the line. This is why Damien Williams can step in for Kareem Hunt and there is zero drop-off in any measurable statistic. It's also why a Laveon Bell is a terrible, terrible fit in this offense.

Reid has also said, and this is fundamental West Coast Offense going back to Bill Walsh-he considers screens and dumps to the flat as an extension of the running game. They're elongated hand-offs. They're running plays. Consider them 'toss' plays if you will. Reid literally does, and does not care if you see it that way. It's a fundamental part of what he considers 'the running game.'

Forcing the defense to cover sideline to sideline is a HUGE part of the overall offensive concept. These plays are essentially really wide 'toss-sweeps'.

So, we've looked at the reason WHY we sometimes struggle with running the ball in short yardage and goal-line situations. Summary-it's not who's carrying the rock. It's that the line is built for other skill-sets.

We've also covered that Reid considers screens and short dump-offs to be part of the running game, as 'extended hand-offs'. You can disagree, but this is literally a fundamental part of his offensive concept.

So-when people say, "You want to change the scheme", they're right.

Because you're wanting to change things tendencies that literally would require changing offensive linemen to straight ahead blocking maulers (Schwartz is really the only guy we have that would fit that)

and you're saying you want to run the ball between the tackles rather than screens and short passes to the flat (which is contrary to the entire idea of the West Coast Offense in any of it's incarnations. The main idea of which is to force a defense to cover every inch of the field at all times.)

And furthermore, you believe that the 'problem' such as it is (or is not to be statistically accurate) is that we lack a quality running back. Hopefully I've explained that Andy Reid has ALWAYS had production from the RB position and always will; it's one of his hallmarks.

And as for me, I'm not saying 'I don't want a running back' I'm saying I don't want to draft one high or sign a big name one in free agency. I say Damien Williams played very, very well in extended snaps; and Darrel Williams played well in less extended snaps. You also have Ware and West, who while they're not all-pro's, only a fool would say they're not totally excellent 3rd string running backs that already know your entire offense and can be retained cheaply if you want to.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

Well done for writing such a long essay . But there's some flaws in your logic/post.

1. IF the RB doesn't matter at all then why has he drafted the likes of Mccoy and Hunt In the 2nd and 3rd rounds? Why not just get undrafted guys if it's that simple?

2. No-one is saying we should change scheme, I'm saying we should get a back who can hold onto the ball when we need them to. Hunt was doing that last season towards the end of games but that has since vanished. And an example of that was the Chargers game when we couldn't keep the ball and they scored In the last minute.

3. Screens and dump offs are all good but that's why I talked about DIVERSITY. And if running the ball down the defense's throat and keeping possession is something Andy would contrive to ignore, then I guess that's why he can't win in the offseason? Because the Pats already showed us how effective that can be.

I give your effort a C though. You tried, But I just don't agree with your assessments and logic.

[UChieffyBugger]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

After his last 'volley' I realized we're clearly wasting our time.

You made a game effort, but it was wasted on someone who refuses to understand it and prefers traffic in straw men.

C'est la vie - I watched Battlefield Earth once and it was both more time consuming and less productive than your post so I can't judge...

I'm glad you decided to wave the white flag rather than continue to put words In my mouth. Well done .

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by UChieffyBugger

Well done for writing such a long essay . But there's some flaws in your logic/post.

1. IF the RB doesn't matter at all then why has he drafted the likes of Mccoy and Hunt In the 2nd and 3rd rounds? Why not just get undrafted guys if it's that simple?

2. No-one is saying we should change scheme, I'm saying we should get a back who can hold onto the ball when we need them to. Hunt was doing that last season towards the end of games but that has since vanished. And an example of that was the Chargers game when we couldn't keep the ball and they scored In the last minute.

3. Screens and dump offs are all good but that's why I talked about DIVERSITY. And if running the ball down the defense's throat and keeping possession is something Andy would contrive to ignore, then I guess that's why he can't win in the offseason? Because the Pats already showed us how effective that can be.

I give your effort a C though. You tried, But I just don't agree with your assessments and logic.

oh boy.

1.-He drafted McCoy and Hunt in the 2nd and 3rd when he had a clear need. we don't have a clear need. We're literally 4 deep right now at viable options at RB. I'm not saying they won't take one somewhere, but I'd be very suprised if it's high, as we literally have 2 CB's with any real game experience on the roster, for example. From a #31 ranked defense. While we have a #1 ranked offense that actually was MORE efficient running the ball with Williams as the primary back.

2.-there's nothing that Williams was doing wrong in any of those games to 'not hang on to the ball'. If you want to blame the playcalls, cool, that's another argument entirely. Williams ran the ball as well as anyone in the NFL the last half of the season. Look at his YPC, yards after contact, hell look at his TD's. He was highly productive. You just don't like him for some reason.

3.-I explained in detail why we sometimes have problems 'running the ball down their throat'. It has to do with the line not being built for a power running attack. If you want to fire Andy Reid over that, that's your opinion. I think that would be stupid.

I give your response a 'D-' because your reading comprehension sucks, your deductive reasoning is non-existent, and your stubborn-ness in the face of facts that disprove your theories is mind boggling.

[UChieffyBugger]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

oh boy.

1.-He drafted McCoy and Hunt in the 2nd and 3rd when he had a clear need. we don't have a clear need. We're literally 4 deep right now at viable options at RB. I'm not saying they won't take one somewhere, but I'd be very suprised if it's high, as we literally have 2 CB's with any real game experience on the roster, for example. From a #31 ranked defense. While we have a #1 ranked offense that actually was MORE efficient running the ball with Williams as the primary back.

LOL now you've gone from "any RB can do well In Reid's system" to "It was a clear need"? CONTRADICTION If I ever saw one. Secondly you've flip flopped on another issue too because you've been crying about us "not needing one" and now you're saying "not a high pick"? And one more thing, Ware and West are FREE AGENTS this summer, so your "four deep" line is a load of bs.

2.-there's nothing that Williams was doing wrong in any of those games to 'not hang on to the ball'. If you want to blame the playcalls, cool, that's another argument entirely. Williams ran the ball as well as anyone in the NFL the last half of the season. Look at his YPC, yards after contact, hell look at his TD's. He was highly productive. You just don't like him for some reason.

Most of the damage Williams done was via dump offs and screens. He barely had games like Hunt had against Denver at Mile High. And no, It's nothing to do with "not liking him", I just want someone better to partner him so we cn have a BETTER run game, it's that simple.

3.-I explained in detail why we sometimes have problems 'running the ball down their throat'. It has to do with the line not being built for a power running attack. If you want to fire Andy Reid over that, that's your opinion. I think that would be stupid.

"Sometimes" does not mean it cannot fixed to make it happen more often, does it?

I give your response a 'D-' because your reading comprehension sucks, your deductive reasoning is non-existent, and your stubborn-ness in the face of facts that disprove your theories is mind boggling.

Say what you want about me, but at least I'm not a flip flopper who has contradicted myself several times in one post .

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by UChieffyBugger

LOL now you've gone from "any RB can do well In Reid's system" to "It was a clear need"? CONTRADICTION If I ever saw one. Secondly you've flip flopped on another issue too because you've been crying about us "not needing one" and now you're saying "not a high pick"? And one more thing, Ware and West are FREE AGENTS this summer, so your "four deep" line is a load of bs.



Most of the damage Williams done was via dump offs and screens. He barely had games like Hunt had against Denver at Mile High. And no, It's nothing to do with "not liking him", I just want someone better to partner him so we cn have a BETTER run game, it's that .



"Sometimes" does not mean it cannot fixed to make it happen more often, does it?



Say what you want about me, but at least I'm not a flip flopper who has contradicted myself several times in one post .

bye. Ignore.

[UChieffyBugger]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

bye. Ignore.

Lol at clowns who I barely interract with thinking they will somehow be "missed". Don't let the door hit your ass buddy, you were a complete waste of paragraphs .

[Couch-Potato]

has this thread come to a consensus top 3 RBs of choice for 2019 yet?

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by UChieffyBugger

Most of the damage Williams done was via dump offs and screens. He barely had games like Hunt had against Denver at Mile High. And no, It's nothing to do with "not liking him", I just want someone better to partner him so we cn have a BETTER run game, it's that simple.

Didn't both Williams and Hunt average 4.8 YPC on the ground last season?

[Chargem]

I also think in terms of the TOP debate, screens and the short passing game run the clock just as much as the run game does.

The best way to improve TOP is for the defense to actually get stops, and be stouter against the run. Pat loves the big play too, I never want him to stop looking for bombs but he will probably learn to take check downs when the situation calls for it a little more as he gets more experience.