Better Call Saul

[rico]

As I am sure many of y'all already know, a spinoff of "Breaking Bad" titled "Better Call Saul" will be airing in 2014. This is going to be a prequel to Breaking Bad and will be based on the character of Saul Goodman from "Breaking Bad."

I, for one, will be watching. I'm sure the majority of all of you other "Breaking Bad" fans will be as well. Might as well get the discussion going sooner rather than later.

So... what are your hopes, expectations and/or concerns with the show? Here are some of mine:

Hopes: I hope to see Saul do his thing in the courtroom. I hope to see strong, unique supporting characters. I hope to see Breaking Bad foreshadowing. I hope he has an intriguing paralegal and/or assistant. I hope to see Breaking Bad characters such as Fring, Mike, etc...whoever. I hope the show kicks ass.

Expectations: I don't expect it to be as good as "Breaking Bad" (because nothing else is, really), but I expect it to be good since Vince Gilligan is writing. I somewhat expect it to have an even balance of comedy and drama...since Saul undeniably provides a substantial amount of comedic relief in "Breaking Bad." I expect to see "courtroom Saul." I expect the "Breaking Bad" references and character cameos to be less than what I hope. If it isn't even a fraction as good as "Breaking Bad," I expect it to be better than 95% of everything else on TV, since there is some shitty shit on TV these days.

Concerns: I'd be a liar if I were to say that I didn't think this show has potential of flopping and certainly failing to meet the presumed high expectations of the audience. Don't get me wrong, I think it will be good... but I think it COULD suck if not executed properly. My main concern is Saul ultimately proving himself to be a "little dab will do ya" type of character, which would lead to a show centered around his character not working out. I am hoping that the character of Saul will not be so over-used and constantly over the top, that he becomes annoying to me, thus ruining his character for me altogether... Not saying I think this will be how it goes down...just saying I think there is a CHANCE of this being the case, which prompts me to believe that a strong supporting cast is VITAL in terms of the amount of success/quality this show will accumulate. All in all, I don't think VG will steer us in an unfortunate direction though...I think they'll pull it off.

Thoughts?

DISCUS!!!!

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I actually found that episode to be the worst of the season. It wasn't bad writ large (it was comparatively, though), just protracted and predictable.

Well, you did call it last week. It was really the only way it could have gone.

Here's the thing: in the end Jimmy may have turned back into Slippin' Jimmy, but I don't think it's due to his nature. Rather, he's like an abused child or spouse, who, because they've always been told they're shit and will never amount to anything, make choices that reinforce their own lowly self-worth.

Jimmy was even given another way out at the end and still didn't take it. Despite the betrayal, he still holds Chuck's opinion in high regard and can't help but see himself as his brother does.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Jimmy was even given another way out at the end and still didn't take it. Despite the betrayal, he still holds Chuck's opinion in high regard and can't help but see himself as his brother does.

I disagree with this assessment of the calculus going on. Jimmy isn't feeling inadequate, he's rebelling from feeling beholden. He runs those scams with Marco, he and Marco are calling the shots and reaping the [ill-gotten] rewards of their cunning and guile. He takes that job, and he now lives a life of wondering what strings Howard, Kim and Chuck had to pull to get him out of their hair. And he's working at a job someone else decided he was worthy of.

He's tired of worrying about how he measures up in the eyes of people who aren't even there for him in an open honest way like Marco was.

[RobBlake]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

I disagree with this assessment of the calculus going on. Jimmy isn't feeling inadequate, he's rebelling from feeling beholden. He runs those scams with Marco, he and Marco are calling the shots and reaping the [ill-gotten] rewards of their cunning and guile. He takes that job, and he now lives a life of wondering what strings Howard, Kim and Chuck had to pull to get him out of their hair. And he's working at a job someone else decided he was worthy of.

He's tired of worrying about how he measures up in the eyes of people who aren't even there for him in an open honest way like Marco was.

Spot on IMO

[RobBlake]

ahh nail salon! haha

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Jimmy isn't feeling inadequate, he's rebelling from feeling beholden.

Oh, I think it's fairly clear that his feelings of inadequacy prompted by Chuck's rejection have quite a bit to do with his actions in this episode. Travelling back to Chicago to participate in his old scams was very much a coping method.

He takes that job, and he now lives a life of wondering what strings Howard, Kim and Chuck had to pull to get him out of their hair. And he's working at a job someone else decided he was worthy of.

So you're saying his choice amounts to freedom? That his decision was based on what his old friend Marco might have wanted? I guess that's one possible reading. But I'd say the real issue is that he no longer believes he's worthy of that kind of job/life in the end. He genuinely wanted to be able to work alongside the brother that he clearly idolized and Chuck snatched that dream away from him. For all his flaws, Jimmy's shown obvious signs of being a kind, compassionate individual throughout the series and one that truly cared for his family, friends, and clients. It's quite possible and maybe even likely that he would have led a good, ethical legal career with his brother's support.

But after Chuck's admission, Jimmy fully accepts that he's the "scumbag" that Chuck thinks he is. He isn't even willing to try to dispute that premise throughout this episode and makes choices that only confirm it. And with his strength of will and ambition being taken away too, there is no coming back for him. His transformation into Saul Goodman was assured the day his brother turned his back on him.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Oh, I think it's fairly clear that his feelings of inadequacy prompted by Chuck's rejection have quite a bit to do with his actions in this episode. Travelling back to Chicago to participate in his old scams was very much a coping method.


So you're saying his choice amounts to freedom? That his decision was based on what his old friend Marco might have wanted? I guess that's one possible reading. But I'd say the real issue is that he no longer believes he's worthy of that kind of job/life in the end. He genuinely wanted to be able to work alongside the brother that he clearly idolized and Chuck snatched that dream away from him. For all his flaws, Jimmy's shown obvious signs of being a kind, compassionate individual throughout the series and one that truly cared for his family, friends, and clients. It's quite possible and maybe even likely that he would have led a good, ethical legal career with his brother's support.

But after Chuck's admission, Jimmy fully accepts that he's the "scumbag" that Chuck thinks he is. He isn't even willing to try to dispute that premise throughout this episode and makes choices that only confirm it. And with his strength of will and ambition being taken away too, there is no coming back for him. His transformation into Saul Goodman was assured the day his brother turned his back on him.

Seriously though, it's pretty clear that Jimmy, whether he knew it or not, chafed under the yoke of 'I ****ed up, but Chuck saved me, so we're doing things his way from now on' ever since the Chicago sunroof.

It ties back into Mike's discussion with the drug nerd in Pimento. 'Criminal' 'straight arrow' 'slipping Jimmy,' those labels come from things you DO. But each moment is a new opportunity to define who you ARE. ANd he decided in the courthouse parking lot to take full ownership of who he is going forward instead of accepting what others have decided it's proper he be.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

It ties back into Mike's discussion with the drug nerd in Pimento. 'Criminal' 'straight arrow' 'slipping Jimmy,' those labels come from things you DO. But each moment is a new opportunity to define who you ARE. ANd he decided in the courthouse parking lot to take full ownership of who he is going forward instead of accepting what others have decided it's proper he be.

Oh, there's no denying that Jimmy made his own choice to become Saul. But that decision was very much a product of his admired brother's lack of belief in him. While Chuck may not have had a major role in this episode, his crushing words from the end of the last episode reverberated throughout this one in Jimmy's choices and actions. Jimmy couldn't escape them.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Oh, there's no denying that Jimmy made his own choice to become Saul. But that decision was very much a product of his admired brother's lack of belief in him. While Chuck may not have had a major role in this episode, his crushing words from the end of the last episode reverberated throughout this one in Jimmy's choices and actions. Jimmy couldn't escape them.

You're really short changing the writing and character development.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

You're really short changing the writing and character development.

Funny, because I was about to say the same about you.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Funny, because I was about to say the same about you.

Really?

Main character is a puppy, pining eternally for big brother's love.
But big brother doesn't respect him, and this devastates Main character, so now he's a sad sack loser.

The End.


Awesome Story Bro.

Jimmy doesn't give a SHIT if big bro believes in him. He's not devastated by any of this. It's been a bummer, but it has liberated him from from his prior role of ****-up little bro who needs guidance, allowing him to decide for himself his own code.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Really?

Main character is a puppy, pining eternally for big brother's love.
But big brother doesn't respect him, and this devastates Main character, so now he's a sad sack loser.

The End.


Awesome Story Bro.

Jimmy doesn't give a SHIT if big bro believes in him. He's not devastated by any of this. It's been a bummer, but it has liberated him from from his prior role of ****-up little bro who needs guidance, allowing him to decide for himself his own code.

Oh man, you really don't take any kind of disagreement well.

The situation obviously is not anywhere near as black and white as you facetiously describe here. Jimmy is an ambiguous, layered character with multiple motivations (such as a desire for freedom, for instance). He's not some kind of good guy who turned bad just because his brother didn't respect him. But if you can't acknowledge that the relationship between these two brothers that the writers focused on all season (and its breakdown which culminated in the emotional climax of the season) had an impact on the choice that Jimmy made, that's pretty incredible. And then to say that he isn't at all devastated or doesn't care what Chuck thinks of him (especially after that display last week)...have you even been paying attention?

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Oh man, you really don't take any kind of disagreement well.

The situation obviously is not anywhere near as black and white as you facetiously describe here. Jimmy is an ambiguous, layered character with multiple motivations (such as a desire for freedom, for instance). He's not some kind of good guy who turned bad just because his brother didn't respect him. But if you can't acknowledge that the relationship between these two brothers that the writers focused on all season (and its breakdown which culminated in the emotional climax of the season) had an impact on the choice that Jimmy made, that's pretty incredible. And then to say that he isn't at all devastated or doesn't care what Chuck thinks of him (especially after that display last week)...have you even been paying attention?

There's a definitive difference between disappointed and motivated, . . . and devastated.

I honestly don't wish to belabor this, but it's too evident for me to cave on it either. He doesn't think he's worthless, or a piece of shit, or incapable of productivity, simply because of Chuck's disapproval reveal. On the contrary, he's on a '**** these squares, I know right from wrong as it works for me' kick, that reflects MORE estimation of his own self-worth than previous.

Sure, he's bummed that his brother has let him down. But it's not like Chuck is the Death Star and Jimmy's entire self-worth is/was Alderaan.

The 'emotional climax' spurred Jimmy to re-think some shit, and re-prioritize. But devastate is an inapposite characterization.

Jimmy's still a big boy, just not as trusting or validation seeking as he was before.

But perhaps I'm not differentiating with sufficient clarity.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/06...netflix-sketch

I pretty much agree with everything Bob had to say on the matter [recognizing even he is not the final authority].

[notorious]

Walt and Saul are very similar.


Being bad makes them feel alive, and when given the choice between doing the right thing (Dark Matter for Walt, Santa Fe job for Saul), they choose the life of excitement because in the end that's who they really are.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by notorious

Walt and Saul are very similar.


Being bad makes them feel alive, and when given the choice between doing the right thing (Dark Matter for Walt, Santa Fe job for Saul), they choose the life of excitement because in the end that's who they really are.

I don't really think they're similar at all. Walt was a megalomaniac, which is why being a meth kingpin was so enjoyable for him. It wasn't about the wealth afforded by the position, but the power. The money was just an excuse to continue gobbling more and more power.

Jimmy is more of a traditional antihero, a true mixture of good and bad. He's displayed far more compassion, charity, and ethical behavior in 10 episodes than Walt did in 60+. He ultimately embraces his dark side because that's all he's ever been told he is.

Basically, Jimmy becomes Saul as a result of a shame spiral; Walt becomes Heisenberg because it's an opportunity to create a fiefdom.

[notorious]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I don't really think they're similar at all. Walt was a megalomaniac, which is why being a meth kingpin was so enjoyable for him. It wasn't about the wealth afforded by the position, but the power. The money was just an excuse to continue gobbling more and more power.

Jimmy is more of a traditional antihero, a true mixture of good and bad. He's displayed far more compassion, charity, and ethical behavior in 10 episodes than Walt did in 60+. He ultimately embraces his dark side because that's all he's ever been told he is.

Basically, Jimmy becomes Saul as a result of a shame spiral; Walt becomes Heisenberg because it's an opportunity to create a fiefdom.

I should have said,"They are similar in the following aspect" before my point.