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Old 12-08-2012, 10:26 PM   #1
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Tell me again how many ranked opponents he faced...
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:06 PM   #2
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Wait, is that what Raiderhader is saying?

Because if so, then holy shitpiss
No, that is not what I am saying. Honestly I could not compare the two until Manziel has a second year under his belt. If looking just at the player (as it should be) I would prefer to compare two seasons as starter to two seasons as starter.

Obviously you caught the drift of what I was saying though. This beauty contest takes a lot more into consideration than just the players (with the occaisonal abberation like last year).
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:16 PM   #3
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No, that is not what I am saying. Honestly I could not compare the two until Manziel has a second year under his belt. If looking just at the player (as it should be) I would prefer to compare two seasons as starter to two seasons as starter.

Obviously you caught the drift of what I was saying though. This beauty contest takes a lot more into consideration than just the players (with the occaisonal abberation like last year).
Why are you talking about multiple seasons in a conversation about the heisman?

Anyway, my point was mainly that the press had talked up what I believe is an undeserving player (Te'o) at an undeserving position (ILB) and that I was glad he didn't win. I would have been gladder had he not been there at all, but I'll take what I can get. Notre Dame was undefeated, so they were going to have a name in the discussion. Maybe they'd have won if you could nominate their front 7 as a group, but in any case, I think it was a joke that Te'o even got votes.

As far as Manziel goes, it's kind of hard to talk down the statistical significance of his performance this year. I think it was in general a year where we didn't really have a single stand-out player, a clear "that's the heisman winner" player, but I do think of the players on the list, he was the most deserving.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:51 PM   #4
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Why are you talking about multiple seasons in a conversation about the heisman?
The question posed was who I thought was the better player, not who had the better season. And besides, during the show tonight the Game Day crew was throwing up stats that covered both of CK's seasons as starter. I am pretty sure that all three of them are voters. So if it is a relevant point to the voters I do not see why it wouldn't be in this discussion.

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Anyway, my point was mainly that the press had talked up what I believe is an undeserving player (Te'o) at an undeserving position (ILB) and that I was glad he didn't win. I would have been gladder had he not been there at all, but I'll take what I can get. Notre Dame was undefeated, so they were going to have a name in the discussion. Maybe they'd have won if you could nominate their front 7 as a group, but in any case, I think it was a joke that Te'o even got votes.

As far as Manziel goes, it's kind of hard to talk down the statistical significance of his performance this year. I think it was in general a year where we didn't really have a single stand-out player, a clear "that's the heisman winner" player, but I do think of the players on the list, he was the most deserving.
Fair enough. My point was that the press' love of the SEC talked about JM's win against 'bama while ignoring two home losses and then talked about CK's Baylor loss and while ignoring eleven wins. Not to mention the fact that at least a portion of the voters didn't wait to see the eleventh win. How people can vote with one week of football left is beyond me.

I am not saying that Klein should or should not have won. You can make a case for either of the QBs that were there tonight. I just want to throw a question out there: does Johnny Football win the award as a freshman if he is in any other conference?
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:27 PM   #5
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Yeah, it's a crying shame defense is looked down on these days.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:33 PM   #6
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Yeah, it's a crying shame defense is looked down on these days.
It's why I like college football more than professional football these days.

In college football, you can still win through defense and physical play. In the NFL, you pretty much have one way to win - throw the shit out of it. That's not the case in college. You can win with goofy Auburn offenses led by Cam Newton running read options, you can have a defense-first team with a dominant running game like 'Bama or you can spread it out and fling it around.

Defense still matters in the college game yet the voters just completely ignore it. There's still never been a purely defensive player win the Heisman, yet all you heard in the runup was about the fact that there's never been a Freshman win one.

Yeah, ND hype machine, indeed. The biggest play in college football this year was Te'o interception in Norman that broke the back of the Sooners, yet everyone wants to fawn over Manziel's TD against Alabama (after he sucked for the entire half)...a play that ultimately meant absolutely nothing.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:30 PM   #7
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:36 PM   #8
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:36 PM   #9
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I was actually thinkin about this the other day DJ. There is so many variety ways to win in the NCAA.

Bama pretty much wins by playing Marty ball, same with LSU. Oregon track meets you.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:48 PM   #10
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I was actually thinkin about this the other day DJ. There is so many variety ways to win in the NCAA.

Bama pretty much wins by playing Marty ball, same with LSU. Oregon track meets you.
That 'Bama/Georgia game was among the most entertaining football games of any variety I've seen in a decade. 'Bama tried to go throw for throw w/ Georgia and it clearly wasn't going to work so they switched gears in the 2nd half and just went to a ground/pound setup.

Meanwhile Murray and co., just kept attacking downfield and were one unlucky deflection/reception away from being in the title game.

College football is the only pure football left anymore. If you have Trent Richardson, you ride him to a national championship. If your best player is an inside linebacker, you tell your Frosh QB to protect the ball and you play clock-control to an undefeated season. If you have Barkley and the best WR corps in the nation, you fire that !@#$ing pigskin. And the rules are set up in a manner that will let any of those styles win.

It isn't the NFL and the college voters shouldn't treat it as such. They should recognize that, in the NCAA, a middle linebacker like Te'o can absolutely be as critical and integral to a teams success as its quarterback can.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:42 PM   #11
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Yeah, Teo absolutely does all those things.


And I still hope like hell we don't do something stupid and take him first overall this year.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:51 PM   #12
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Yeah, Teo absolutely does all those things.


And I still hope like hell we don't do something stupid and take him first overall this year.
Jesus, no. Like I said - different games.

What he does is huge at that level. And if this were the mid-1970s it would be huge here.

But there's no question that his game, while it translates extremely well to the next level, isn't nearly as important as getting your pass rush and your quarterback in place.

That's why I've said I'd trade back into the first for him if he started sliding. If we take Geno, and with Houston and Hali in the fold, we have the QB and the pass rush taken care of. So now you address your intermediate coverage, your leadership and firm up your run-stopping by taking Te'o.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:53 PM   #13
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QB, LT, Pass Rushers and monster WR's (if I already have the other 3) are about the only things I'm taking in the top 5.

If somehow Teo were to be available late teens I'd think about trading back up, but I also think there are LB's who can do what he would do at the next level, or atleast adequately do it, later in the draft.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:14 PM   #14
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QB, LT, Pass Rushers and monster WR's (if I already have the other 3) are about the only things I'm taking in the top 5.

If somehow Teo were to be available late teens I'd think about trading back up, but I also think there are LB's who can do what he would do at the next level, or atleast adequately do it, later in the draft.
And a dominant DB.

I'd rather get Geno/Wilson at 1 and then get Alec Ogletree in round 2.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:53 PM   #15
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