Mock 11/23/19

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by BryanBusby

Too many things I disliked to break it all down at that moment, but no problem! - Thanks this is more what I look for because at this moment it's just throwing shit at the wall and gauging what people feel are the biggest holes. Not that any of this will come to fruition, but usually the consensus speaks closely to what happens.

That would be a terrible return for a pass-rusher like Chris Jones in a pretty weak class for 3/5 tech's. Once Brown is off the board, it gets thin in a hurry. That should tell you pretty quick that trade sucks. - I agree it gets thin. I like Brown and Marvin Wilson, but after that it's pretty meh. I like some 4-3 run stuffers though. Maybe Chris Jones is worth more, but historically you don't see much movement of DTs and those that have been of late haven't generated big returns. Perhaps Jones being a good pass rusher will help.

Once you factor in that just letting Jones walk out the door would get you a 3 in 2021 anyhow, that trade really sucks. - I'm preparing myself for a letdown with Jones' return. If Veach has proven anything, he doesn't get much value in trades.

Spending the #33 pick on a RB with how good the mid range talent pool is in this class is bad. - Dobbins is the only back I'm considering ahead of round 5/UDFA and I don't think he lasts long into round 2, if he even gets there. I really like Ragas late. In my opinion it's either lay the chips down on the table and get a stud or just continue with the status quo.

Don't like the idea of Hall in the first round, and I especially don't understand retaining Breeland than following it up with drafting a CB in the first round. Is that you Matt Millen? - Fully disagree here. I'm letting Fuller and Claiborne walk and I'm looking more forward here than a year or two. Hall is probably the best DB in this draft at getting his hands on the football. I'm not especially enamored with Ward as a starter nor do I think Fenton is going to be an every-down corner. I'd rather have a good set of outside CBs in today's NFL than not. I think Breeland + Hall is a solid combination. If anything, I'd consider myself more overzealous in picking up Jimmy Ward in FA but he's more of a Honey Badger insurance policy than he is much else.

Robinson isn't leaving the Lions and if they pick up a new DT, I'd like someone with more of a pass-rushing presence. - I can agree here, although I'd rather the DTs be run-first oriented. This team plays better with Nnadi, Saunders, and Pennel as the primary interior defenders. I may shift this money to going back to hoping a guy like Schobert isn't franchised.

DRob is going to fetch more than that in an open market. - I doubt it. We thought Conley would too and he didn't. DRob is nearly a carbon copy. Maybe you have to add a million per over the two years, but I don't think it's any higher than that. Even if you don't compare him to Conley, he certainly fits in the Allen Hurns and Andre Roberts category and they fetched in that range.

Not really sure why they're targeting a DE either if Ogbah is being retained. - Okafor sucks, aside from Ogbah and Clark there isn't much, and Spags likes a strong rotation there. I may be going for one a bit early, but I don't like a good portion of this DE class.

With how that offseason is shaping up, if they're targeting a LB it direly needs to be a Mike. - Hitchens was a mistake, no doubt about it. He's far too tentative, gets washed out, and doesn't attack lanes. I hate his ass in the middle as much as anyone. I'd rather make him a June 1 cut than project him on this roster another day. I've been contemplating the position more than any other and just can't foresee a perfect situation outside of drafting two linebackers early, and that's mostly because I don't think the top guys will be available in free agency. Most people want a CB early. I'm on the fence. I would not be opposed to double-dipping at LB and ignoring CB early in the draft, if not entirely, and using free agency to do the same old dance we have been of going after aging free agents. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing Claiborne back with Breeland.

Not really understanding the OL pick up. I think they're going to be ok at Guard, if Rankin can pick up where he left off before the injury. Ldt isn't leaving yet. I'd like an upgrade at Center, but that's what I'd use a mid round pick on in the draft. - Glasgow can play center, he started all of 2018 there. The Lions slid him to guard this year with Ragnow moving back inside to center where he's more natural. They've kind of bounce Glasgow around everywhere. Most people I know that are Lions fans are perplexed with how the Lions have handled, or really not handled, Glasgow. He's been good in all situations, but most loved him as the starting Center. I think he's more than a solid upgrade to Reiter, and that's how I project it with Rankins and LDT flanking him.


Is that enough for you? Kudos to all the work you put in on doing the OP, I just don't agree with the moves. - I appreciate your commentary on these alot, you normally have good insights. Razzing you a bit, but definitely a big thanks for chiming in with some things to think on!

Remarks in red, and thanks!

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by kccrow

Remarks in red, and thanks!

Dylan Moses make it to us in your world?

I very much doubt that he does because teams seem to dock guys maybe 5-10 spots for injuries like that if they're considered premier talents. So if he was maybe a top 10 pick before the injury, you figure late teens after. And if he tests well, he'll lose hardly any ground at all.

And with Bush and White both struggling this year (Bush came out on fire but has fallen off over the last several weeks) it seems like it's just !@#$ing hard to play MLB in this league right now.

Maybe we didn't understand just how friggen hard it is to find someone like Derrick Johnson. I mean everyone else we talk about when we say "X would fix so many problems for us on this defense at MLB" is a HoF guy. Schobert's the only dude I've seen who fits who isn't someone like Keuchly or Wagner who are possible first ballot dudes.

It just seems the 2nd tier of 'really good MLBs' is damn near barren right now. They're either elite or they're crap.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Dylan Moses make it to us in your world?

I very much doubt that he does because teams seem to dock guys maybe 5-10 spots for injuries like that if they're considered premier talents. So if he was maybe a top 10 pick before the injury, you figure late teens after. And if he tests well, he'll lose hardly any ground at all.

And with Bush and White both struggling this year (Bush came out on fire but has fallen off over the last several weeks) it seems like it's just !@#$ing hard to play MLB in this league right now.

Maybe we didn't understand just how friggen hard it is to find someone like Derrick Johnson. I mean everyone else we talk about when we say "X would fix so many problems for us on this defense at MLB" is a HoF guy. Schobert's the only dude I've seen who fits who isn't someone like Keuchly or Wagner who are possible first ballot dudes.

It just seems the 2nd tier of 'really good MLBs' is damn near barren right now. They're either elite or they're crap.

RunKc brought it up, but Breeland Speaks over Fred Warner is tough to swallow.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by O.city

RunKc brought it up, but Breeland Speaks over Fred Warner is tough to swallow.

Yeah and it happens to every team. There are other fan boards out there taking about taking player A over Kelce. I don’t get the need to whine about it. There is no team out there that hits on every pick.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

Yeah and it happens to every team. There are other fan boards out there taking about taking player A over Kelce. I don’t get the need to whine about it. There is no team out there that hits on every pick.

Yeah, for sure. It's all a crap shoot.

It just sucks double the amount cause Speaks sucks.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by O.city

Yeah, for sure. It's all a crap shoot.

It just sucks double the amount cause Speaks sucks.

It does but no one gets to talk shit if they weren’t banging the table for someone like Warner.

Case in point. DJ and I were yelling for us to draft Kamara.

[TambaBerry]

Originally Posted by O.city

Yeah, for sure. It's all a crap shoot.

It just sucks double the amount cause Speaks sucks.

He's had one season playing the wrong position how do you know he sucks already

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by TambaBerry

He's had one season playing the wrong position how do you know he sucks already

I'm open for a bet of some sort here.

I don't KNOW the sun will rise tomorrow...but I'm pretty sure of it. And I'm pretty damn sure that Breeland Speaks sucks. Sure enough that I don't feel the need to qualify it every time I say it.

We ain't in a court of law and I don't stand on ceremony. So rather than repeatedly say "I'm pretty sure Breeland Speaks sucks" I'm just gonna say "Speaks sucks" as a shorthand.

Because Speaks sucks.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

RunKc brought it up, but Breeland Speaks over Fred Warner is tough to swallow.

I've mentioned Warner as the kind of guy we should've stumbled onto at least once over the last decade if we had just TRIED.

The problem is how little effort we've put into the off-ball linebacker spot. The team post-Carl has treated ILB/MLB like Carl treated QBs. And to nobody's surprise, it's not going well.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I've mentioned Warner as the kind of guy we should've stumbled onto at least once over the last decade if we had just TRIED.

The problem is how little effort we've put into the off-ball linebacker spot. The team post-Carl has treated ILB/MLB like Carl treated QBs. And to nobody's surprise, it's not going well.

Yep.

A few 2nds, and a 3rd here or there and maybe you've got someone.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

Yep.

A few 2nds, and a 3rd here or there and maybe you've got someone.

Just look at this shit:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1496

Spoiler!

Well you run into the same problem we run into when asking why Dorsey didn't draft more difference makers on defense - priority.

I mean...we haven't really tried.

Lets look at all the capital spent on off-ball LBs since DJ (I assume you're not including Hali, Houston or Ford in this and mean strictly off-ball guys not edge players):

2006: None
2007: None
2008: None
2009: None

So right away we have a 4 year stretch where we put literally NOTHING at the position. Not even a 7th round pick.

2010: Maybe you squint and say Cameron Sheffield at pick 142; a converted DE.
2011: Gabe Miller - pick 140
2012: None
2013: Nico Johnson - pick 99
2014: None
2015: Ramik Wilson -Pick 118 and DJ Alexander at 172
2016: None
2017: Ukeme Eligwe - pick 183
2018: DoD - Pick 100


In 14 years --- FOURTEEN YEARS -- we've drafted seven guys who might be classified as off-ball linebackers and even that includes DJ Alexander and Cam Sheffield who were always seen as some kind of hybrid/edge sort of players. But give ya all 7 just to be sporting; one every other year.

And in that lot we have a 3rd rounder (dead back of the round) two 4th rounders and four 5th rounders. I mean shit, since 2005 we've spent a 3rd and a 7th on a kicker and a punter. Even the trades are 5th rounders in 2 seasons for Ragland and stuff like that; nominal assets.

Now to some degree it's explained by the time we spent in a 3-4 over that period AND the presence of DJ. You've never felt the need to prioritize the position. But it's still worth pointing out that we've struggled there because we haven't tried - rightly or wrongly, we simply haven't made an effort at that position. We've drafted better than half that lot in the 5th round and spent a 5th rounder on Ragland. Value the position at roughly the 5th round and you probably shouldn't be surprised by a pittance of a return.

It's past time to change that thinking.

Same thread:

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1547

Spoiler!

Which is how you get to the "maybe just try a few times?" stage of the program.

I'm not gonna kill them for not spotting every single decent potential 4-3 backer; I get that it can be difficult.

But if you won't even spin the wheel here and there, you can't even get a guy like, say, Fred Warner in here. And Warner's a solid player who you'll stumble onto every few seasons if you just make a damn effort.

Just seems strange that we don't.

Gotta at least pretend to give a shit about a position in the draft in order to get any kind of productivity from it.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Gotta at least pretend to give a shit about a position in the draft in order to get any kind of productivity from it.

I agree with this. I followed a bit of the Chiefs' recent philosophy and I threw a later pick at the position pretty much every year in the alternate reality mocks and finally may have hit on a 5th rounder in Cole Holcomb.

2016 (4-99) - Josh Perry - Whiff
2017 (5-148) - Blair Brown - Whiff
2018 - None
2019 - (5-178) - Cole Holcomb - Starting w/ 76 tackles

That's not going to cut it when you only have one somewhat decent LB on the entire team.

[Toad]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Dylan Moses make it to us in your world?

I very much doubt that he does because teams seem to dock guys maybe 5-10 spots for injuries like that if they're considered premier talents. So if he was maybe a top 10 pick before the injury, you figure late teens after. And if he tests well, he'll lose hardly any ground at all.

And with Bush and White both struggling this year (Bush came out on fire but has fallen off over the last several weeks) it seems like it's just !@#$ing hard to play MLB in this league right now.

Maybe we didn't understand just how friggen hard it is to find someone like Derrick Johnson. I mean everyone else we talk about when we say "X would fix so many problems for us on this defense at MLB" is a HoF guy. Schobert's the only dude I've seen who fits who isn't someone like Keuchly or Wagner who are possible first ballot dudes.

It just seems the 2nd tier of 'really good MLBs' is damn near barren right now. They're either elite or they're crap.

Moses dropping to KC would be good, but Schobert would be ideal in that he would hit the ground running as a true QB of the defense.

Here is a hair brained idea: player (and potential picks) tag and trade swap of CJones for Schobert.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Dylan Moses make it to us in your world?

I very much doubt that he does because teams seem to dock guys maybe 5-10 spots for injuries like that if they're considered premier talents. So if he was maybe a top 10 pick before the injury, you figure late teens after. And if he tests well, he'll lose hardly any ground at all.

And with Bush and White both struggling this year (Bush came out on fire but has fallen off over the last several weeks) it seems like it's just !@#$ing hard to play MLB in this league right now.

Maybe we didn't understand just how friggen hard it is to find someone like Derrick Johnson. I mean everyone else we talk about when we say "X would fix so many problems for us on this defense at MLB" is a HoF guy. Schobert's the only dude I've seen who fits who isn't someone like Keuchly or Wagner who are possible first ballot dudes.

It just seems the 2nd tier of 'really good MLBs' is damn near barren right now. They're either elite or they're crap.

If Moses declares after a season-ending knee injury. I haven't really put him on the radar until I see he does that. If he does, he certainly is in the realm of possibility. Obviously the situation isn't quite the same as Jaylon Smith because Moses should be able to run well by the time the draft rolls, but that injury may stick in people's heads when the draft comes.

Only reason I've pumped the brakes on Shobert was looking at the Browns free agent list. I think he gets tagged. He's been playing good enough football the past few years I think he's just as well on pace as Keuchly and Wagner at this point in his career. I don't think the Browns let that walk.

As for RB, I seriously considered mocking a FA pickup of Jordan Howard. He's the big back that can do everything that Veach seems to like and he won't come with the price tag that guys like Bell and Henry will.