Mort "Herm's secure .....

[Mr. Laz]

in his job to go for 2 pts and the win anytime he feels like ... this coach in kansas city, Clark Hunt, believes in him and believes in going with young players"


Herm/Carl '09 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


yeaaaah baby


from NFL Countdown show on ESPN

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Laz

read what you just wrote

1. offensive line is still A problem but no longer THE problem
2. a spread-hybrid alleviates alot of that pressure
3. makes the Oline look better
4. especially when we have a QB that can run it.

all these 4 things point directly to a Head coach that didn't know what they hell to do until it was forced on to him by a untenable situation.

he tried to force his square players into a round hole or he didn't know how to pick players to fit his system.

either way Herm screwed the pooch and continued humping that poor little doggie until he didn't have a choice.

Look at each of those 4 items, and tell me how many you expected to have been answered by this point when the season started. At the beginning of the year, did you expect to have the offensive line playing well enough to be competitive? Did you expect to be running a pass-heavy spread offense? Did you expect to have a QB throwing, running, and catching TDs the way Thigpen has?

You act like we should have expected some smooth transition going from the oldest team in the league with no backups to the youngest team in the league with no backups. Hell I think we're slightly ahead of schedule in terms of where I thought we'd be right now.

[Reerun_KC]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

Look at each of those 4 items, and tell me how many you expected to have been answered by this point when the season started. At the beginning of the year, did you expect to have the offensive line playing well enough to be competitive? Did you expect to be running a pass-heavy spread offense? Did you expect to have a QB throwing, running, and catching TDs the way Thigpen has?

You act like we should have expected some smooth transition going from the oldest team in the league with no backups to the youngest team in the league with no backups. Hell I think we're slightly ahead of schedule in terms of where I thought we'd be right now.

I think we are right on schedule as well.. Actually I am more impressed with Herm than I thought I would be... 1-18 in the last 19 and 5-20 over the last 2 seasons....

On top of that, the team has been in shambles, injuries, pro bowlers wanting traded, Herms featured back, the corner stone of his prolific offense, sidelined with injuries and stupidity.

I honestly didnt think that was possible to experience, it takes a special kind of coach to compile this kind of success!

Thankfully we are 2.5 years in of this 4 year nightmare... There is hope on the horizon, someday we will be free of this incompentence....

[Brock]

Originally Posted by GoReerun_KC

Thankfully we are 2.5 years in of this 4 year nightmare... There is hope on the horizon, someday we will be free of this incompentence....

Ha ha. Herm will get an extension before next season.

[dallaschiefsfan]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

The fact that you are questioning your own idea on how he could just "unleash" this offense should give you pause. The fact that it's happening, and it's making you scratch your head as to how it could happen, should make you question your own opinion. If Herm were really the tyrannical offensive overlord with his finger on the playcalling button, then we shouldn't be seeing what we're seeing.

WTF? I walk away from this for a couple of hours and you babble this BS? This is your argument? Pathetic...

[chiefzilla1501]

Based on what? A few years spent with Paul Hackett, who I guarantee you pushed harder than anyone for an R2P2 type offense, a year with MIke Heimidinger (which was a wide open offense, by the way, but wasn't executed well b/c of QB problems), and 2 years with solari who looked completely out of his element as an o-coordinator?

Gailey is only the 2nd coordinator strong enough and capable enough to launch a wide open attack. Those who are upset about the Chiefs being too conservative in the first 5 games, again, let me ask you what you're supposed to do when your offense features 6 new starters and a revolving door of QBs? Gailey may have been handcuffed by Herm, but he was handcuffed much moreso from inheriting a crappy situation in which half the team was learning a new offense.

Originally Posted by Laz

just stop ..... just stop right there



your argument is "hope" not anything else

you hope that somehow Herm has changed or that it wasn't really his fault because you think he is coming back next year and the idea is too horrid to think about if it is Herm's fault.

that's fine ..... just don't try to argue logic when it might as well be some kind of football bible you praying to.



"Faith baby ... Faith that Herm isn't the total dillhole that he appears to be!!! Faith and Hallelujah"

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

Herm deserves ZERO defenders. The minute we look just a LITTLE competitive...like we might be able to make a run at the playoffs, Herm will revert back to "play not to lose". He has no stomach to play the way we're playing on offense. He's only doing it because he's desperate and wants to keep his job. Mark it. This offense goes away the minute we get competitive. And everyone who believes otherwise is irrationally optimistic in regards to Herm.

Nobody here is saying he's a great game coach.

The question is, is he the right coach for the massive rebuild they're doing now, in which player development and team building is far more important than winning. Do you have a definitive answer for that?

[dallaschiefsfan]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Based on what? A few years spent with Paul Hackett, who I guarantee you pushed harder than anyone for an R2P2 type offense, a year with MIke Heimidinger (which was a wide open offense, by the way, but wasn't executed well b/c of QB problems), and 2 years with solari who looked completely out of his element as an o-coordinator?

Gailey is only the 2nd coordinator strong enough and capable enough to launch a wide open attack. Those who are upset about the Chiefs being too conservative in the first 5 games, again, let me ask you what you're supposed to do when your offense features 6 new starters and a revolving door of QBs? Gailey may have been handcuffed by Herm, but he was handcuffed much moreso from inheriting a crappy situation in which half the team was learning a new offense.

Yes...Herm is a victim. Thank you Dick Curl.

[dallaschiefsfan]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Nobody here is saying he's a great game coach.

The question is, is he the right coach for the massive rebuild they're doing now, in which player development and team building is far more important than winning. Do you have a definitive answer for that?

Winning is NEVER unimportant or even secondary. What a stupid thing to say. The league is based around the idea of winning. You can't artificially divorce winning from any of the other goals you might have.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

Winning is NEVER unimportant or even secondary. What a stupid thing to say. The league is based around the idea of winning. You can't artificially divorce winning from any of the other goals you might have.

The league is now based around earning money.

Winning, in many towns, is secondary.

[Reerun_KC]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Winning, in many towns, is secondary.

You just summed up KC from 1988 to present...

[chiefzilla1501]

Yes, if Vermeil stayed more than 2 years, similar results would have happened. Under the Vermeil era, Carl Peterson whiffed on 5 consecutive drafts. You would have had retirements from Willie Roaf and Will Shields and still depending on Jordan Black to be your right tackle. You'd have Eddie Kennison on the downward slide and Samie Parker still the best #2 option available. The defense would still be horrible. Trent Green would be over 35 years old, playing behind an offensive line behind no pro bowlers. And the Chiefs were so strapped by the cap due to years and years of delaying the rebuild that they'd have no resources to get the right players.

So basically, you'd have a starting lineup of:
QB - 35+ year old Green
RB - LJ
O-line: Jordan Black-Waters-Wiegmann-Welbourn-Turley
WR: 30+yo Kennison, Parker, Dante Hall
TE: Gonzalez, injured Jason Dunn

Defense: We know the story here

Perhaps you can explain to me how we were supposed to succeed with taht kind of starting lineup, regardless of the coach. Vermeil was a terrific coach, but the front office failed BIG TIME during his 5 years to bring in any kind of young talent.

Herm inherited a ship that was sinking fast and hard. I can't believe there's anyone that deny that, given that we lost a pro bowl LT, Fullback, Right Guard, and borderline pro bowl QB and WR.

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

This is all just so wrong-headed thinking. You're trying to tell me that if Vermeil stayed one more year, the results would have been the same? Seriously?

I don't even know how to respond to your second paragraph...because you're making the case that herm-ball doesn't work for this team and its personnel. Herm wants to play HIS style of ball...this is purely a desperation move on his part and it's working...because Gailey is a professional guy who has game. Herm is a VERY good secondary coach that has somehow risen through the ranks of the coaching world because of his linkage to Dungy, Kiffin, etc and some irrational reputation he's garnered for being a Defensive-guru...which he's clearly not.

[Reerun_KC]

Ten years from now people will still be blaming DV for the lack of talent of this team...

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by dallaschiefsfan

Winning is NEVER unimportant or even secondary. What a stupid thing to say. The league is based around the idea of winning. You can't artificially divorce winning from any of the other goals you might have.

So you'd rather be the Jets right now, a team that is winning football games but looks like crap and invested all their future on winning within the next 2 seasons? I'd much rather be the Chiefs right now than the Jets. That's called settling for 9-7 instead of building for 13-3.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by GoReerun_KC

Ten years from now people will still be blaming DV for the lack of talent of this team...

It's not Vermeil's fault.

It was Peterson's fault.

Compare Peterson's draft record to any other GM in the league. It is not just worse, it is significantly worse.

Then you tell me how you can keep a team moving forward with less than 5 draft picks over a 5-year span who contribute anything at all, whether as a backup or a starter.

[Reerun_KC]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Yes, if Vermeil stayed more than 2 years, similar results would have happened. Under the Vermeil era, Carl Peterson whiffed on 5 consecutive drafts. You would have had retirements from Willie Roaf and Will Shields and still depending on Jordan Black to be your right tackle. You'd have Eddie Kennison on the downward slide and Samie Parker still the best #2 option available. The defense would still be horrible. Trent Green would be over 35 years old, playing behind an offensive line behind no pro bowlers. And the Chiefs were so strapped by the cap due to years and years of delaying the rebuild that they'd have no resources to get the right players.

So basically, you'd have a starting lineup of:
QB - 35+ year old Green
RB - LJ
O-line: Jordan Black-Waters-Wiegmann-Welbourn-Turley
WR: 30+yo Kennison, Parker, Dante Hall
TE: Gonzalez, injured Jason Dunn

Defense: We know the story here

Perhaps you can explain to me how we were supposed to succeed with taht kind of starting lineup, regardless of the coach. Vermeil was a terrific coach, but the front office failed BIG TIME during his 5 years to bring in any kind of young talent.

Herm inherited a ship that was sinking fast and hard. I can't believe there's anyone that deny that, given that we lost a pro bowl LT, Fullback, Right Guard, and borderline pro bowl QB and WR.

Then how can most franchises can totally turn a roster over in 3 years or less and in that 3rd year be competing deep in the playoffs?

This approach Herm and Carl are taking is so 1980's, with free Agency and the draft, teams dont need 5 years to rebuild... Is a 3 year or less and you better have some results for your effort.

We are in year 3 of Herm and Carls plan......