The 4-3 Under and Current Personnel

[11Chiefs]

Here are some thoughts about transitioning to 4-3. I like the player comparisons. Let these guys play in a scheme and position where they can succeed. My only question... can KPass adjust and find a role.

The 4-3 discussion deserves it's own thread. #megathreadssuck

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/...personnel-fits

Spoiler!

With the hiring of new defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, the Chiefs are likely seeing a switch from their 3-4 defense to the 4-3. That’s caused a lot of consternation amongst Chiefs fans, but where are the biggest problems for the Chiefs in this switch?

I’m going to give you a quick-and-dirty look at where some players can fit, position responsibilities and who are the winners and losers of the formation switch.

The 4-3 variant that Spagnuolo chooses to use is similar to that utilized by his mentor and former Andy Reid defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, called the 4-3 Under. The 4-3 Under front shares quite a few similarities to that of the Chiefs 3-4 defense, making this transition easier.

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

3 Technique - Lining up to the same side as the weak-side defensive end, the 3-tech is a penetrating player capable of beating a guard one on one. This position is typically a player that has a solid get-off, can knife to either side and has the speed to attack the run from the back side. Once again, an easy fit — and potentially a better fit in the 3-4 base defense — for Chris Jones. Jones can utilize his speed and strength to collapse on the run, get after the passer, and find plenty of great matchups one on one in a 4-3 under front.

1 Technique - Opposite of the 3 technique, the 1 technique is typically a 2-gap player, getting doubles against the strong-side guard and center, freeing up the linebackers behind him to make stops. This is usually filled by a player in an “under tackle” or “nose guard” mold, which the Chiefs have in Derrick Nnadi and Xavier Williams. Both will have to command a double team to keep the linebackers clean, and both should be plenty capable.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

SAM linebacker - When most think of the 4-3 defense, they think of three off-ball linebackers on the second level behind four defensive linemen. With the 4-3 Under, one of those off-ball linebackers shifts down close to the line of scrimmage — still standing — and can rush the passer or drop into coverage to carry a tight end to the safeties in the second level. During Spagnuolo’s second run as a defensive coordinator with the New York Giants, he acquired Olivier Vernon, who played this role regularly. Vernon is a large outside linebacker with limited coverage ability but was able to defend the run very well off of the tight end and could find a lot of success as a pass rusher standing up. If that sounds familiar to you, it should — it’s quite similar to what Justin Houston has offered the Chiefs recently. Houston would be a very solid fit in this role should the Chiefs retain him.

Mike linebacker - Shading between the 1-tech and the 3-tech at the second level, the Mike linebacker’s responsibility in the 4-3 under are to cover a short hook zone in the center of the field and to attack the run. With his limited coverage ability shown this season — as well as a much more familiar four-man front in front of him, like he saw in Dallas — Anthony Hitchens is a solid fit in this role. He’ll be less exposed in coverage, can set the fronts, and attack downhill more readily instead of being asked to cover multiple gaps as the weak-side linebacker in the Chiefs 3-4.

Will linebacker - Sitting behind the weak-side defensive end and the 3-tech, the will linebacker is tasked with keying off of the running back in the run game and kicking out into man coverage or the flats against the pass. This will linebacker is typically kept clean by the defensive linemen in front of him, allowing him to attack as unimpeded to the running back as he can from the weak side of the formation. As a good coverage linebacker and a guy that struggles to stack and shed blockers, Dorian O’Daniel might gain the biggest advantage in a scheme switch. The Chiefs could find themselves in a great position to utilize last year’s third-round pick.

When the Chiefs change to their sub package — something that every NFL team runs as their primary package — this evolves easily. The Chiefs can remove the 1-tech, shift the strong-side defensive end inside, and bring the SAM down — a 4-2 front similar to that they’ve used in the past — or they can remove the strong-side defensive end and stay big in the middle to protect against the run, still as a 4-2 front.

Winners
NFL: Kansas City Chiefs at Denver Broncos
Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
Breeland Speaks is a big winner here, having a true position on the field. His ability to kick inside in the sub package and play the run in the base are hugely beneficial for the Chiefs. Dorian O’Daniel and Anthony Hitchens would be in significantly more comfortable roles for the style of play they are capable of, and that should only improve the Chiefs run defense and coverage ability. Chris Jones is also a big winner, seeing more one-on-ones in the base defense and he too could find snaps in Speaks’ strong-side defensive end role if the Chiefs wanted to develop a more penetrating front on some plays.

Losers
Reggie Ragland simply doesn’t have a home in a 4-3 Under. He isn’t strong enough to set an edge or rushing the passer to play the way Spagnuolo utilizes his SAM, and he’s not a better option at the Mike than Anthony Hitchens. Tanoh Kpassagnon is also not a great option at SAM due to his run defense, and not a good enough pass rusher as a LEO to come off the other EDGE.

With the Chiefs having to make some serious decisions at pass rusher — Justin Houston’s bloated contract and Dee Ford’s impending free agency — they’ll have to decide if they need to keep both, or which position they’ll have to fill this offseason. While the LEO position is arguably the most important in the front, the skillset of the SAM is a difficult one to find.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by saphojunkie

if the Chiefs release Dee Ford, he will sign a contract that in all likelihood nets a 3rd round comp pick.

If they tag and trade him, the best they are getting is a second rounder. That's your window - bottom of the third to top of the second. Personally, I can't see a team giving up a high second round pick for a player who is going to cost a hell of a lot more than a rookie would at the same position. If I'm a GM, I am going to keep my second and try to find that same player at age 21 on a cheap contract.

Our best bet is tagging/trading Ford and landing a high third rounder instead of a comp pick, which comes at the end of the round. Maybe someone gets desperate and gives up a second, but with the young pass rushers on the market this year, I don't see why.

Because based on all reports, all of those young pass rushers aren’t going anywhere. That’s why.

[O.city]

I doubt any of those pass rushers hit the market

[ChiefoftheKeyboard]

Lol how many pass rushers do you guys really think are available? That are any good anyways. You have Clowney and ford. Outside of that who’s gonna be top 5 in pressures??

[scho63]

Will Eric Berry be faster or slower in our new 4-3?

[scho63]

Originally Posted by saphojunkie

if the Chiefs release Dee Ford, he will sign a contract that in all likelihood nets a 3rd round comp pick.

You are truly a dumb **** in Hollywood

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by Mecca

You know if this team were to franchise Ford...that is a shit ton of money tied up in 3 defensive players that frankly aren't all that productive.

We'd have a really highly paid defense that sucks balls...**** we already have that it'd just be even more well paid.

It's almost like the idea here is to have a more productive defense..........

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Because based on all reports, all of those young pass rushers aren’t going anywhere. That’s why.

It's conceivable that he would be the 1st or 2nd highest rated pass rusher available.

It's conceivable that someone that sees him as a missing piece might in fact cough up a #1 for him. I think a #2 is more likely, but it's possible.

[ChiefoftheKeyboard]

Also, it’s pretty realistic to think Dorsey drafted TK thinking Sutton would be gone Sooners they’d transition to a 4-3. Then they fired Dorsey and likely decided they didn’t want to switch gm’s, OC’s, DC’s and QBs all in one season. So instead they suffered another yr of Sutton while TKas inactive and Reid was coaching up beienemy and mahomes. Pretty sure TK was asked to lose weight to play OLB. For all we know he’s been putting weight back on to be another interior pass rusher where he’d fit, or play DE where he is still a better fit than OLB.

[Chargem]

Packers have the 30th pick from the Saints right? There's a tiny chance of that if no pass rushers hit the open market due to tags.

As for the whole "signing the tag" situation, if I was Ford I would just sign the tag May 1st, if I wanted to actually stay and not get traded. Hard for the Chiefs to draft not knowing his situation and there wouldn't be as much of a market after the initial FA window and draft was done.

[ChiefoftheKeyboard]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

It's conceivable that he would be the 1st or 2nd highest rated pass rusher available.

It's conceivable that someone that sees him as a missing piece might in fact cough up a #1 for him. I think a #2 is more likely, but it's possible.

Considering Cooper got the raiders a 1 looking like complete shit, I think a 1 is pretty realistic. Based on veachs last trade though I think a quality player and a lower pick like a bottom 2 or 3 is more likely. The giants can designate Vernon as a post June 1 cut and only have 1M in dead cap. So I think a Ford for Collins and a 3 could happen. We may have to accept a 2020 pick rather than 2019 but I’m fine with that. Plus Collins had his best seasons under spag.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by ChiefoftheKeyboard

Also, it’s pretty realistic to think Dorsey drafted TK thinking Sutton would be gone Sooners they’d transition to a 4-3. Then they fired Dorsey and likely decided they didn’t want to switch gm’s, OC’s, DC’s and QBs all in one season. So instead they suffered another yr of Sutton while TKas inactive and Reid was coaching up beienemy and mahomes. Pretty sure TK was asked to lose weight to play OLB. For all we know he’s been putting weight back on to be another interior pass rusher where he’d fit, or play DE where he is still a better fit than OLB.

I think he'll be one of the interesting things to watch this offseason. in all reality, the time spent training as OLB shouldn't hurt him unless he's dropped too much weight. He should be nimbler. And there's still been pass rush work. But I'd like to see him DE. Physically, he's a freak.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

It's almost like the idea here is to have a more productive defense..........

I don't know if you can be productive if you have a bunch of highly paid 1 trick pony defenders.

If this team has big contracts on Houston, Berry, Jones, Ford and Hitchens..I want someone to tell me how the defense will ever be good.

That's a whole let of age, injury, 1 trick ponies and in general a sure fire way to have a defense that isn't good.

[ChiefoftheKeyboard]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I think he'll be one of the interesting things to watch this offseason. in all reality, the time spent training as OLB shouldn't hurt him unless he's dropped too much weight. He should be nimbler. And there's still been pass rush work. But I'd like to see him DE. Physically, he's a freak.

I totally agree. I think this move could save that pick, bc it was looking pretty bad and just straight up confusing. Just another example of how we’ll be able to better utilize the talent we already have.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Mecca

I don't know if you can be productive if you have a bunch of highly paid 1 trick pony defenders.

If this team has big contracts on Houston, Berry, Jones, Ford and Hitchens..I want someone to tell me how the defense will ever be good.

That's a whole let of age, injury, 1 trick ponies and in general a sure fire way to have a defense that isn't good.

I hold out hope that Hitchens will revert to being good.

I would like to cut Berry ( I know) Houston, and tag and trade Ford

Houston can stay if he restructures and drops his cap number signifigantly. He's still a good player when healthy and not a one trick pony.

But yeah, your point.

[ChiefoftheKeyboard]

Originally Posted by Mecca

I don't know if you can be productive if you have a bunch of highly paid 1 trick pony defenders.

If this team has big contracts on Houston, Berry, Jones, Ford and Hitchens..I want someone to tell me how the defense will ever be good.

That's a whole let of age, injury, 1 trick ponies and in general a sure fire way to have a defense that isn't good.

Houston is the exact opposite of a one trick pony. Berry’s contract however is strong arming us. So he’s gonna be on the team. No savings and no trade value so ya that just sucks. Jones will fit in this defense great and Hitchens will look worlds better. It’s no coincidence he looked WAY worse playing for Sutton. As for Ford, you’re right which is why I hope he’s tagged and traded.