The 4-3 Under and Current Personnel

[11Chiefs]

Here are some thoughts about transitioning to 4-3. I like the player comparisons. Let these guys play in a scheme and position where they can succeed. My only question... can KPass adjust and find a role.

The 4-3 discussion deserves it's own thread. #megathreadssuck

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/...personnel-fits

Spoiler!

With the hiring of new defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, the Chiefs are likely seeing a switch from their 3-4 defense to the 4-3. That’s caused a lot of consternation amongst Chiefs fans, but where are the biggest problems for the Chiefs in this switch?

I’m going to give you a quick-and-dirty look at where some players can fit, position responsibilities and who are the winners and losers of the formation switch.

The 4-3 variant that Spagnuolo chooses to use is similar to that utilized by his mentor and former Andy Reid defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, called the 4-3 Under. The 4-3 Under front shares quite a few similarities to that of the Chiefs 3-4 defense, making this transition easier.

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

3 Technique - Lining up to the same side as the weak-side defensive end, the 3-tech is a penetrating player capable of beating a guard one on one. This position is typically a player that has a solid get-off, can knife to either side and has the speed to attack the run from the back side. Once again, an easy fit — and potentially a better fit in the 3-4 base defense — for Chris Jones. Jones can utilize his speed and strength to collapse on the run, get after the passer, and find plenty of great matchups one on one in a 4-3 under front.

1 Technique - Opposite of the 3 technique, the 1 technique is typically a 2-gap player, getting doubles against the strong-side guard and center, freeing up the linebackers behind him to make stops. This is usually filled by a player in an “under tackle” or “nose guard” mold, which the Chiefs have in Derrick Nnadi and Xavier Williams. Both will have to command a double team to keep the linebackers clean, and both should be plenty capable.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

SAM linebacker - When most think of the 4-3 defense, they think of three off-ball linebackers on the second level behind four defensive linemen. With the 4-3 Under, one of those off-ball linebackers shifts down close to the line of scrimmage — still standing — and can rush the passer or drop into coverage to carry a tight end to the safeties in the second level. During Spagnuolo’s second run as a defensive coordinator with the New York Giants, he acquired Olivier Vernon, who played this role regularly. Vernon is a large outside linebacker with limited coverage ability but was able to defend the run very well off of the tight end and could find a lot of success as a pass rusher standing up. If that sounds familiar to you, it should — it’s quite similar to what Justin Houston has offered the Chiefs recently. Houston would be a very solid fit in this role should the Chiefs retain him.

Mike linebacker - Shading between the 1-tech and the 3-tech at the second level, the Mike linebacker’s responsibility in the 4-3 under are to cover a short hook zone in the center of the field and to attack the run. With his limited coverage ability shown this season — as well as a much more familiar four-man front in front of him, like he saw in Dallas — Anthony Hitchens is a solid fit in this role. He’ll be less exposed in coverage, can set the fronts, and attack downhill more readily instead of being asked to cover multiple gaps as the weak-side linebacker in the Chiefs 3-4.

Will linebacker - Sitting behind the weak-side defensive end and the 3-tech, the will linebacker is tasked with keying off of the running back in the run game and kicking out into man coverage or the flats against the pass. This will linebacker is typically kept clean by the defensive linemen in front of him, allowing him to attack as unimpeded to the running back as he can from the weak side of the formation. As a good coverage linebacker and a guy that struggles to stack and shed blockers, Dorian O’Daniel might gain the biggest advantage in a scheme switch. The Chiefs could find themselves in a great position to utilize last year’s third-round pick.

When the Chiefs change to their sub package — something that every NFL team runs as their primary package — this evolves easily. The Chiefs can remove the 1-tech, shift the strong-side defensive end inside, and bring the SAM down — a 4-2 front similar to that they’ve used in the past — or they can remove the strong-side defensive end and stay big in the middle to protect against the run, still as a 4-2 front.

Winners
NFL: Kansas City Chiefs at Denver Broncos
Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
Breeland Speaks is a big winner here, having a true position on the field. His ability to kick inside in the sub package and play the run in the base are hugely beneficial for the Chiefs. Dorian O’Daniel and Anthony Hitchens would be in significantly more comfortable roles for the style of play they are capable of, and that should only improve the Chiefs run defense and coverage ability. Chris Jones is also a big winner, seeing more one-on-ones in the base defense and he too could find snaps in Speaks’ strong-side defensive end role if the Chiefs wanted to develop a more penetrating front on some plays.

Losers
Reggie Ragland simply doesn’t have a home in a 4-3 Under. He isn’t strong enough to set an edge or rushing the passer to play the way Spagnuolo utilizes his SAM, and he’s not a better option at the Mike than Anthony Hitchens. Tanoh Kpassagnon is also not a great option at SAM due to his run defense, and not a good enough pass rusher as a LEO to come off the other EDGE.

With the Chiefs having to make some serious decisions at pass rusher — Justin Houston’s bloated contract and Dee Ford’s impending free agency — they’ll have to decide if they need to keep both, or which position they’ll have to fill this offseason. While the LEO position is arguably the most important in the front, the skillset of the SAM is a difficult one to find.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

The only reason that I can come up with is that it would have been a hard sell that you’re switching QBs and defensive schemes all in one offseason. Fans like us would have understood it but I don’t think a majority of your typical fans would.

Maybe

Just weird shit

[Dante84]

Hey, Giants, we'll give you Ford for Collins

[RunKC]

My thing is why did we draft Tanoh? There is clearly a dissenting opinion there. You can’t draft a guy for one system and then continue to employ a DC that runs another making said investment obsolete.

Just a disaster. You can’t blow early picks like this and be successful

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by BleedingRed

He won’t sign, he holds the leverage.



And he knows once released he can cash in. I tried telling people this, but Nooooo. Other teams will wait for release

He doesn’t have to sign.

Chiefs make the non exclusive franchise tag.

If he doesn’t sign the franchise tag offer, the Chiefs get two first-round comp picks from the team he does sign with. This provision kills his negotiating stance with teams in FA, who have to pay money and give up 6-8 years of cheap 1st-round production to get him, too.

If he signs, he gets the money, guaranteed, and can either play or be traded with a lucrative extension in the works.

If he doesn’t sign the tag and sits out all year, Chiefs can do same thing again next year.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by Bowser

All I'm getting from reading this is that we tag and trade Ford.

You got that from this?

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

[saphojunkie]

Originally Posted by Showtime

He has all the leverage buddy. He can wait to sign tag till week 9 of next year. Did you not see what Bell just did.

Lose out on a year of 8 digit earning?

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

The only reason that I can come up with is that it would have been a hard sell that you’re switching QBs and defensive schemes all in one offseason. Fans like us would have understood it but I don’t think a majority of your typical fans would.

Or the team didn't think Mahomes would turn into the GOAT in year 1 is the more likely answer.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

Ignoring the fact where he’s already publically states that he has no problem getting tagged?

He has repeatedly stated he would play under the franchise tag if necessary.Thats a ton of $$ and he isnt moron like Bell.

[Chris Meck]

I don't mind Houston at SAM but I think his pass rush skills would be better suited at RDE, where he can line up, beat the tackle and kill. I'd think with his health history he'll last longer just mostly dealing with one blocker, no downblocks, or getting squeezed.
I like a line of: Speaks-Nnati-Jones-Houston with Kpass and Wiliams as rotational guys.
I'd like to tag and trade Ford.
I think a decent SAM would be easy to fill in FA and relatively inexpensively as they're not going to have big sack numbers or special athletic abilities. Lunch pail guys.
Hitch in the middle, where he can flow and attack, and DoD where he's got Jones and Houston in front of him and he can just key on backs and slot guys.

It's also worth noting-one of the things that Spags did a lot with the Giants was move linemen around flip flopping spots to get match-ups they liked and to confused the OL. So while we might set this as one way for the "starters" any play could have any one of the 4 down linemen in any spot if that's part of his scheme again.


]

[saphojunkie]

if the Chiefs release Dee Ford, he will sign a contract that in all likelihood nets a 3rd round comp pick.

If they tag and trade him, the best they are getting is a second rounder. That's your window - bottom of the third to top of the second. Personally, I can't see a team giving up a high second round pick for a player who is going to cost a hell of a lot more than a rookie would at the same position. If I'm a GM, I am going to keep my second and try to find that same player at age 21 on a cheap contract.

Our best bet is tagging/trading Ford and landing a high third rounder instead of a comp pick, which comes at the end of the round. Maybe someone gets desperate and gives up a second, but with the young pass rushers on the market this year, I don't see why.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

He has repeatedly stated he would play under the franchise tag if necessary.Thats a ton of $$ and he isnt moron like Bell.

Yup. That and people need to stop using bell as some shining example. He lost a ton of money this year. Worse, he lost a ton of money on his next contract because nobody wants to pay big coin for that kind of diva. Collect the franchise tag and get paid. Be a good sport and someone will reward you on the next contract. Ford seeks like a good enough dude to take that path.

[Mecca]

Bell did it because he's a RB, he realized if the Steelers pounded him into the ground he would never get paid again.

I don't fault him for it, he's playing the long game of, by not taking this 15 million think I can get 35 million.

[Mecca]

You know if this team were to franchise Ford...that is a shit ton of money tied up in 3 defensive players that frankly aren't all that productive.

We'd have a really highly paid defense that sucks balls...**** we already have that it'd just be even more well paid.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry

Or the team didn't think Mahomes would turn into the GOAT in year 1 is the more likely answer.

This would be my guess

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by RunKC

So Tanoh Kpassagnon didn’t see the field bc of Bob ****ing Sutton.

Nate Bukaty on 810 interview with Grunny (19:30)

“I will tell you there are people in the organization who will tell you they are frustrated that Bob Sutton tried getting Tanoh Kpassagnon to play like an OLB at 6’7” and dropping him into coverage like Houston and Ford bc that’s what the scheme calls for. Tanoh is built to be a DE. That’s a terrible fit for him. I know people in the organization thought he’d fit in a 4-3.”

This was one of my biggest issues with Sutton. He'd try to ram square pegs into round holes. YOU MUST FIT INTO MY SCHEME

rather than making schematic adjustments to take advantage of player's skillsets.

Contrast that with Belichick. This is his biggest strength-he looks around at what he's got and then figures out how to best use the talent he has to work with. It's why the Patriots are different all the time-but they win.