Chris Simms: Tyreek Hill #1 WR in the NFL

[ToxSocks]

at all the Packers fans crying because Davante Adams didn't make his top 10. Video marked at Tyreek Hill discussion.

[O.city]

Julio is an all time WR. You could put him in any system and he's gonna be elite.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

It's apples and oranges.

Big, long, tall guys don't play the same as smaller, compact guys.

You might prefer the look of one over the other; and might prefer the benefits of one over the other, but the value of one over the other lies in the offensive system.

To try to compare them outside of context is silly.

With Mahomes, in this system, Tyreek is the best possible WR to have. His skillset matches perfectly.

A Julio Jones type WR in a different system, with a different QB might be a better fit.

I think elite speed transfers about anywhere though.

Exactly.

With this system and this quarterback, there's not a guy in the league I'd rather have than Hill. He's an absolutely perfect fit. Apart from Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss, I'm just not sure you could draw up a better guy. Jerry Rice, I guess.

But if I'm a team that relies more on ball control, I'm taking Julio 100 times out of 100. Or even Hopkins, who again, I'm not in love with. But put Hopkins in Baltimore and he'd be far more effective for them than Hill would be.

And honestly, on MOST teams, Hopkins or Julio would probably be more effective than Hill. Because on most teams, Hill would be a supercharged Julien Edelman. Because few teams have a QB that can put his stop/start ability and top-end speed to its full use. And those that do have a guy with that kind of arm also have a guy who's accuracy comes and goes and who needs a bigger catch radius (think Josh Allen).

So in that regard I understand why some wouldn't have Hill ranked as highly. He's simply uniquely suited for this team.

[O.city]

I think you could put Hill in Pitt with a healthy big Ben and he'd be just as good. Hill has the rep as a speedster, but he's a damn well rounded WR.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by O.city

I think you could put Hill in Pitt with a healthy big Ben and he'd be just as good. Hill has the rep as a speedster, but he's a damn well rounded WR.

Well, you'd return to vintage Big Ben style passing, which is stand in there and chuck it downfield. Sure, that would work as long as Ben is standing upright.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by O.city

Julio is an all time WR. You could put him in any system and he's gonna be elite.

great players are great players and would make plays in any system.

All these guys are great players that are being discussed.

Some would have less statistical impact in different systems with different QB's.

Some are in perfect situations for their skillsets.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

great players are great players and would make plays in any system.

All these guys are great players that are being discussed.

Some would have less statistical impact in different systems with different QB's.

Some are in perfect situations for their skillsets.

For sure.

But for those blue chip upper level guys, you aren't having much drop from system to system. They'll fit anywhere.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Exactly.

With this system and this quarterback, there's not a guy in the league I'd rather have than Hill. He's an absolutely perfect fit. Apart from Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss, I'm just not sure you could draw up a better guy. Jerry Rice, I guess.

But if I'm a team that relies more on ball control, I'm taking Julio 100 times out of 100. Or even Hopkins, who again, I'm not in love with. But put Hopkins in Baltimore and he'd be far more effective for them than Hill would be.

And honestly, on MOST teams, Hopkins or Julio would probably be more effective than Hill. Because on most teams, Hill would be a supercharged Julien Edelman. Because few teams have a QB that can put his stop/start ability and top-end speed to its full use. And those that do have a guy with that kind of arm also have a guy who's accuracy comes and goes and who needs a bigger catch radius (think Josh Allen).

So in that regard I understand why some wouldn't have Hill ranked as highly. He's simply uniquely suited for this team.

Tyreek Hill turned Alex Smith into the #1 rated passer in the league and made Alex all of a sudden discover his deep ball.

I disagree that few teams could utilize his start/stop ability. The pure speed of Tyreek Hill makes him in instant mismatch in any offense. ****, even Matt Moore figured out how to throw the ball over the top to Hill.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Tyreek Hill turned Alex Smith into the #1 rated passer in the league and made Alex all of a sudden discover his deep ball.

I disagree that few teams could utilize his start/stop ability. The pure speed of Tyreek Hill makes him in instant mismatch in any offense. ****, even Matt Moore figured out how to throw the ball over the top to Hill.

I think in true Chiefsplanet fashion, we're staking out positions on opposite ends of the argument when the truth is not so black and white.

I don't think anyone's saying Hill couldn't be effective in any system; and I said I think elite speed is perhaps the one element of a skillset that certainly translates.

and I think it should be obvious that pairing an elite WR with an elite QB in any system is killer. They'll find a way to make it work.

as for Matt Moore-he's always had a bit of gunslinger in him. I'm glad he's back, I think he's showed more than Henne in Miami, and here.

Not all QB's have a deep ball accuracy to take advantage of Hill's runaway speed like Mahomes. But, Hill would still be deadly in short and intermediate passing. Just not the same way.

a guy like Julio Jones would still be a great player here, but would lose some targets downfield, I think, due to Watkins and Hardman's ability to separate with speed. Jones would still be great, it's just not his best system fit.

It's not a knock on any of the individual players. I'm just saying some are better system/QB fits than others. But as I said, great players will be great anywhere.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Tyreek Hill turned Alex Smith into the #1 rated passer in the league and made Alex all of a sudden discover his deep ball.

I disagree that few teams could utilize his start/stop ability. The pure speed of Tyreek Hill makes him in instant mismatch in any offense. ****, even Matt Moore figured out how to throw the ball over the top to Hill.

Alex Smith also pocketed a ball in a playoff game that Mahomes would've thrown. A ball that is the kind of ball that makes Hill so dangerous.

I'm not saying he'd be ineffective. My comparison to Edelman isn't meant as derogatory - a healthy Edelman was good for 100 catches and 1100 yards. A 'supercharged Edelman' would be good for even more.

But it takes 2 or 3 deep shots/season that Mahomes completes over an ordinary player to knock 150-200 yards off Hill's total figures. That's not nothin'...

[ThaVirus]

Originally Posted by O.city

Julio is an all time WR. You could put him in any system and he's gonna be elite.

This is what it boils down to for me.

Julio will go down as one of those handful of elites for all-time, IMO, with the likes of Rice, Moss, TO, Calvin Johnson, etc. At their peak, there's simply no one better.

If the second tier consists of guys like Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, etc then I'd bet Hopkins will probably wind up in that third or maybe even fourth tier of all-timers when everything's said and done.

Brandon Marshall is actually a good comparison. In their prime, is there really any difference between the two? It's only been about five years since Marshall was relevant and he's all but forgotten already. Hopkins strikes me as a similar case.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

This is what it boils down to for me.

Julio will go down as one of those handful of elites for all-time, IMO, with the likes of Rice, Moss, TO, Calvin Johnson, etc. At their peak, there's simply no one better.

If the second tier consists of guys like Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, etc then I'd bet Hopkins will probably wind up in that third or maybe even fourth tier of all-timers when everything's said and done.

Brandon Marshall is actually a good comparison. In their prime, is there really any difference between the two? It's only been about five years since Marshall was relevant and he's all but forgotten already. Hopkins strikes me as a similar case.

Rice belongs in his own tier.

But y'know a guy you forgot? Who history may well wildly underrate as well (or maybe correctly rate)?

Larry Fitzgerald. #2 all time in receiving yards. #2 all time in total receptions. #6 in receiving touchdowns. And if he played to 42 somehow like Rice did, he'd pass him in receptions (probably not yards).

And to be honest, I'm not even sure overlooking him is unfair. Was he ever the best receiver in the league? Led the league in catches twice, TD catches twice, never in yards. Lots of Pro Bowl nods but only a single All Pro team (which again, acknowledges his 'always very good, maybe never the best' status).

If you wanna talk about Hopkins, Fitzgerald is my comp for him. He was just...steady. All the time. For a long time. Never a terrifying threat out there, never blew the league away. Was just always pretty damn good and was held back by mediocre QB play for parts of his career (though I still contend that mediocre QB play often helps elite WRs numbers - strength in volume for a QB that will force a ball to his security blanket instead of scanning the field and finding a better option).

Wasn't the fastest or the strongest and probably never the best. Just always very good at a lot of things with no real weaknesses. And apart from the adulation he'll get when he finally retires and then when he's elected into the HoF on the first ballot, history's probably just gonna forget the guy.

[DJ's left nut]

Regarding Hill, and I know this is cheating due to his special teams nods, but look at these first 4 years in the league. By 25 years old he had:

4100 receiving yards, 41 scores, 281 receptions (good for roughly 70/1,000/10/yr despite not starting as a rookie and missing 1/4 of another season). 4 Pro Bowl nods, 2 1st team All Pro selections, a Super Bowl championship. And WASP.

Not !@#$ing bad for a 5th round pick, man...

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Jesus.

When pro-rated for a 16 game season, Julio's career average season is 101 catches for 1540 yards and 7 scores. Last season was his first season over the previous 6 where he didn't go for at least 1,400 yards (1394 over 15 games)

Wow. Yeah, he can play a little bit. He'll slow down a bit at some point (31 years old now) but it's hard to say he has before he does.

Hopkins average is 1,228 yards, 7 TD’s (closer to 8 at 7.7) with 11 less catches than Julio.

Keep in mind Hopkins doesn’t get the luxury of playing with an NFL MVP QB his entire career or have a top 5 offensive coach for a few years.

The fact that Hopkins has virtually the same production with literal shit at QB most of his career speaks to his value. And when he finally did have a good QB the last 2.5 years he dominated, but had a horrible HC.

Staylor will push the narrative that I think Julio sucks but that isn’t true. He’s a good receiver, but I don’t put him at the very top and that gets posters in their feelings.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Hopkins average is 1,228 yards, 7 TD’s (closer to 8 at 7.7) with 11 less catches than Julio.

Keep in mind Hopkins doesn’t get the luxury of playing with an NFL MVP QB his entire career or have a top 5 offensive coach for a few years.

The fact that Hopkins has virtually the same production with literal shit at QB most of his career speaks to his value. And when he finally did have a good QB the last 2.5 years he dominated, but had a horrible HC.

Staylor will push the narrative that I think Julio sucks but that isn’t true. He’s a good receiver, but I don’t put him at the very top and that gets posters in their feelings.

You literally called him “overrated” and “a more athletic Dwayne Bowe”. You also said he wasn’t clutch. You didn’t say he “sucks”, but you aren’t giving him near enough credit for being the best WR of the last 10 years not named Antonio Brown.

[Mecca]

That's kinda weird he said that since I think Jones is far more athletically gifted than Hopkins is.