Veach is the best GM in the NFL

[staylor26]

I don’t think it’s even debatable at this point

[RaidersOftheCellar]

It's strange to me that people are suddenly so down on Veach and the roster. The consensus a month ago seemed to be that the team was loaded. Now you hate every single player on the defense and some of the offensive talent too. It's not as if most of them are new.

[CatfishBob2]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The talent on the offense is fine. It should still be a 35+ game/unit. That's a truly dangerous offense but it's playing incredibly poorly.

You could tell in the first drive that it wasn't working well. A bad/unnecessary hold by Robinson, a dropped 1st down, a complete misfire to a wide open Kelce. It took them something like 13-15 plays to work themselves into FG range and I think Mahomes was something like 2 of 8 on the drive. it was ugly as sin.

And it only got worse from there. The offense is committing unforced errors even when it's executing (weeks 1-4) and last night it wasn't executing either.

Now the talent on the defense, OTOH, is clearly a major problem.

I slightly disagree. The young guys are showing up the vets so far this year, imo. Once the rest of the D gets their head out of their ass(and we bench Sorenson) I think we could play much better. We obviously needed juice in the pass rush. But we spent our best picks addressing the OL and LB.. Couldn't address everything..

Now we beefed up the Oline and Our best RB(who is barely starting caliber) is hurt and we have nothing but practice squad material behind him. We gonna need the old PMII if this team is gonna go to the playoffs

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by jd1020

Wasn't Mahomes' contract structured in a way that if they needed cap space they can just convert a good chunk of his salary to a signing bonus?

In theory every contract has that potential. And yes, his can be re-worked.

But that's just kicking the can. You're going to convert salary to bonus and send it out into later years, but those 'later years' start the very next season and you're only going to compound problems. That's how genuine 'cap hell' happens.

Personally I think that's a duct tape sort of solution that will create more problems than it solves over a meaningful timeline.

His guys getting paid like stars have to play like stars, his 'middle class' players have to be, at worst, reliable contributors and his young guys have to be more impactful than folks like MEH, Speaks and even Thornhill/Hardman are demonstrating to this point.

Veach absolutely has to be better at this job than he's been the last several years. The job is only going to get harder.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He won't have the luxury of those overpays anymore because now Mahomes (and Jones) are being paid to their talent levels.

So no, that's not really an option going forward. Especially if/when Kelce and Hill start to decline and their last couple of years end up with some legacy costs baked into them.

Even paying Orlando Brown a market contract next year is going to really impact the Chiefs ability to improve the rest of the roster. The days of throwing bags at luxury items like Watkins are gone. The days of overpaying for 'glue guys' like Mathieu aren't coming back.

He's going to have to do more with less going forward - especially when he has to start backfilling for the age-related declines of the Dorsey players he inherited.

I just don't know how confident anyone can be in his ability to navigate that minefield.

Tyreek is another one that was still cheap in 2018. I think the Jones contract is potentially an albatross. He might be one of those guys who stops trying on defense when they get paid. Justin Houston & Frank Clark are good examples of it. Veach has done a poor enough job drafting on the defensive side of the ball that I think it’s very fair to wonder if this will ever improve.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by CatfishBob2

I slightly disagree. The young guys are showing up the vets so far this year, imo. Once the rest of the D gets their head out of their ass(and we bench Sorenson) I think we could play much better. We obviously needed juice in the pass rush. But we spent our best picks addressing the OL and LB.. Couldn't address everything..

Now we beefed up the Oline and Our best RB(who is barely starting caliber) is hurt and we have nothing but practice squad material behind him. We gonna need the old PMII if this team is gonna go to the playoffs

I acknowledged that somewhere else 'round here. We obviously had a dire need on the OL and a finite amount of cap/draft resources to address that with.

It didn't leave much for the rest. I get it. But the problem is that some of those issues arose from previous mistakes. They compound over time if you can't course-correct quickly.

But again - all that gets to where I started in this thread years ago. There was a whole lot of hand jobs given to Brett Veach for a job that should've been graded as an INC to that point because he simply hadn't reached the meat of the responsibility yet. Now he's there and the early returns have been less than stellar.

[Red Dawg]

Originally Posted by CatfishBob2

I slightly disagree. The young guys are showing up the vets so far this year, imo. Once the rest of the D gets their head out of their ass(and we bench Sorenson) I think we could play much better. We obviously needed juice in the pass rush. But we spent our best picks addressing the OL and LB.. Couldn't address everything..

Now we beefed up the Oline and Our best RB(who is barely starting caliber) is hurt and we have nothing but practice squad material behind him. We gonna need the old PMII if this team is gonna go to the playoffs

This team needs the playoffs like a we all need to be hit in the face by Tyson Fury. We need better draft status and let's face it, we will get it. Looking at the schedule we are a 7 win team most likely and that's a good thing. I just hope Veach doesn't **** it up with project players. Get a damn pass rusher and a corner in 1 and 2 rounds.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

In theory every contract has that potential. And yes, his can be re-worked.

But that's just kicking the can. You're going to convert salary to bonus and send it out into later years, but those 'later years' start the very next season and you're only going to compound problems. That's how genuine 'cap hell' happens.

Personally I think that's a duct tape sort of solution that will create more problems than it solves over a meaningful timeline.

His guys getting paid like stars have to play like stars, his 'middle class' players have to be, at worst, reliable contributors and his young guys have to be more impactful than folks like MEH, Speaks and even Thornhill/Hardman are demonstrating to this point.

Veach absolutely has to be better at this job than he's been the last several years. The job is only going to get harder.

I mean... by the end of the 2023 season damn near all of his guaranteed money is paid out. I don't think the Chiefs will ever have to worry about 'cap hell' because of his contract.

[Rainbarrel]

Tank to shank the D. Get some rest along the way.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by jd1020

I mean... by the end of the 2023 season damn near all of his guaranteed money is paid out. I don't think the Chiefs will ever have to worry about 'cap hell' because of his contract.

Sure they will. It's not like they're going to cut him.

So they can keep bonusing out his salary and pushing it off, but it will compound. You take $25 million in roster bonuses and convert it to a signing bonus in 2022, that's $5 million in cap space it's adding to the subsequent 4 seasons. Then you do it again the following year and suddenly you're dragging along an extra ten million. Then in 2024 you're already carrying $10 million in restructure bonuses in addition to the $4.5 million or so you restructured in 2020, then you're looking at his $34 million roster bonus and his $2 million base and you're talking about a $55 million cap hit in 2024.

I mean...I guess you convert the roster bonus to a signing bonus for a fourth straight year, but now you're looking at a $61 million cap charge in 2025. And that's when this new young OL is going to need new deals and Hill/Kelce will be declining and Jones will need to be replaced. The entire roster will probably be different around him and he's going to be sporting a cap figure that will make meaningful additions nearly impossible.

At some point you just have to pay the goddamn piper or you will bury your cap. You can't just keep converting roster bonuses and salary into signing bonuses because it's going to keep adding up and compounding into an inescapable monster down the road.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Sure they will. It's not like they're going to cut him.

So they can keep bonusing out his salary and pushing it off, but it will compound. You take $25 million in roster bonuses and convert it to a signing bonus in 2022, that's $5 million in cap space it's adding to the subsequent 4 seasons. Then you do it again the following year and suddenly you're dragging along an extra ten million. Then in 2024 you're already carrying $10 million in restructure bonuses in addition to the $4.5 million or so you restructured in 2020, then you're looking at his $34 million roster bonus and his $2 million base and you're talking about a $55 million cap hit in 2024.

I mean...I guess you convert the roster bonus to a signing bonus for a fourth straight year, but now you're looking at a $61 million cap charge in 2025. And that's when this new young OL is going to need new deals and Hill/Kelce will be declining and Jones will need to be replaced. The entire roster will probably be different around him and he's going to be sporting a cap figure that will make meaningful additions nearly impossible.

At some point you just have to pay the goddamn piper or you will bury your cap. You can't just keep converting roster bonuses and salary into signing bonuses because it's going to keep adding up and compounding into an inescapable monster down the road.

I know they wont ever cut him, unless he has some life altering injury, but I'm going to assume the powers at be know more about manipulating the salary cap than me and you. How many times did the Patriots restructure Tom Brady to find money for guys like Randy Moss? We've been told numerous times that 'cap hell' is a myth. The Chiefs structured Mahomes' contract in such a way that if they need cap room they could free up space. I'm not concerned about not having money to sign someone.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Originally Posted by Red Dawg

This team needs the playoffs like a we all need to be hit in the face by Tyson Fury. We need better draft status and let's face it, we will get it. Looking at the schedule we are a 7 win team most likely and that's a good thing. I just hope Veach doesn't **** it up with project players. Get a damn pass rusher and a corner in 1 and 2 rounds.

Stop with this shit you play to win. Having a higher draft pick doesn't guarantee anything. Just ask the Jets.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by jd1020

I know they wont ever cut him, unless he has some life altering injury, but I'm going to assume the powers at be know more about manipulating the salary cap than me and you. How many times did the Patriots restructure Tom Brady to find money for guys like Randy Moss? We've been told numerous times that 'cap hell' is a myth. The Chiefs structured Mahomes' contract in such a way that if they need cap room they could free up space. I'm not concerned about not having money to sign someone.

I mean - you can assume it, but the math is easy. Basic calculator work will get you where you need to go. The available mechanisms are public knowledge.

The distinction is that Brady, to the chagrin of the players association, often took pay cuts or left money on the table. He's sign some extension that paid very little on the back end, knowing they'd eventually get around to tearing it up. Some said it was because he was was loaded, others said shady dealings with Kraft. But Brady wasn't just restructuring money - he was giving money back. And it was far easier for Brady to do that because his deals weren't a decade long. Given the limitations on how far out you can pro-rate, some of that stuff just won't be available for Mahomes and his 10 year deal.

Additionally, at a point asking your star player to take less money is bad business, especially when guys who haven't been as good as him are getting paid more. Occasionally you can go to that well but doing so annually? Or flat out asking that he forego salary or bonuses? Just presuming Patrick would, or even that he should, is a fools errand.

Cap hell isn't really a myth, but it's a lot harder to get into than some acknowledge. A cap can be easily manipulated for a year or three (as Veach has shown). But there is one way to get into cap hell and it's to keep doubling down and doubling down. It's what the Saints have done and their cap is a damn mess. Every 5-10 years some team tries something like this for another 1-2 year chase and it always means that they've gotta scorch the earth for a season or 2 to clean up the mess.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Tom Brady had 4 distinct phases of his Patriots tenure and in all those 4 phases his supporting cast was essentially completely different.

Mahomes will have the same thing. He'll have 3-4 different 'primary crews' over the course of his Chiefs career.

Now tell me - just how confident are you in Veach assembling the next one? Because that resume of his is pretty much whatever credit you want to give him for Mahomes, a coupld of good 3rd day picks and a bunch of overpays.

Looking at this realistically, Veach was a young GM in his first gig. He was handed one of the worst defenses ever (during the 2018 season it had periods of that futility). He didn’t have a 1st rd pick his first year due to the Mahomes trade so he was already behind the 8 ball. But yes his draft aside from Nnadi was a really bad draft.

And yes Veach is living off of Dorsey’s picks right now. Do people not think Dorsey didn’t do the same? Tamba, Houston, Berry, DJ. Even Allen Bailey was a quality interior rusher for a period of time.
Dorsey could not get the next wave of defensive players to replace those guys. Dee Ford was a broke dick and his LB, corner and safety additions were just plain terrible.

So yes I think Veach had some rookie struggles but I think the trend is encouraging. Sneed was a great pick. Niang seems to be a decent RT. Danna has done well for a 5th rd pick. Gay is still TBD.

I guess I feel compelled to give him more time bc of this years offseason. Creed and Trey are legit pro bowlers. They’re that good. Bolton had 2 TFL last night and flashed as much as any LB we’ve had since DJ. He’s not a “star” but he looks like he belongs and more time could help him.
Orlando Brown Jr has been okay. That’s not terrible for a LT that is cheap right now and working into the position. I think the contract structure will be what defines that move. And then Thuney of course ha been good.

The defense was really really bad and Veach/Spags patched it up in 2019. Of course they didn’t have good draft capitol but they used some of it on Frank Clark.

This is why the league is so hard. The Seahawks had it good then it got very difficult. Same with the Packers.

The Bills, Browns and Chargers are the best teams in the conference right now. What do they all have in common? They haven’t paid their QB’s yet and have had higher draft picks recently to get things done. The Chargers are the perfect example. They’re good bc they had higher draft picks to get most of their talent. Derwin James, Kenneth Murray, Mike Williams, Joey Bosa, Rashawn Slater. What happens when they don’t pick so high anymore?

Things will get harder for them soon like it is for us.

[Titty Meat]

Convinced the OP and Veach were hooking up

[KChiefs1]

Some of his moves are very very questionable to say the least.


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