The 4-3 Under and Current Personnel

[11Chiefs]

Here are some thoughts about transitioning to 4-3. I like the player comparisons. Let these guys play in a scheme and position where they can succeed. My only question... can KPass adjust and find a role.

The 4-3 discussion deserves it's own thread. #megathreadssuck

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/...personnel-fits

Spoiler!

With the hiring of new defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, the Chiefs are likely seeing a switch from their 3-4 defense to the 4-3. That’s caused a lot of consternation amongst Chiefs fans, but where are the biggest problems for the Chiefs in this switch?

I’m going to give you a quick-and-dirty look at where some players can fit, position responsibilities and who are the winners and losers of the formation switch.

The 4-3 variant that Spagnuolo chooses to use is similar to that utilized by his mentor and former Andy Reid defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, called the 4-3 Under. The 4-3 Under front shares quite a few similarities to that of the Chiefs 3-4 defense, making this transition easier.

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

3 Technique - Lining up to the same side as the weak-side defensive end, the 3-tech is a penetrating player capable of beating a guard one on one. This position is typically a player that has a solid get-off, can knife to either side and has the speed to attack the run from the back side. Once again, an easy fit — and potentially a better fit in the 3-4 base defense — for Chris Jones. Jones can utilize his speed and strength to collapse on the run, get after the passer, and find plenty of great matchups one on one in a 4-3 under front.

1 Technique - Opposite of the 3 technique, the 1 technique is typically a 2-gap player, getting doubles against the strong-side guard and center, freeing up the linebackers behind him to make stops. This is usually filled by a player in an “under tackle” or “nose guard” mold, which the Chiefs have in Derrick Nnadi and Xavier Williams. Both will have to command a double team to keep the linebackers clean, and both should be plenty capable.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

SAM linebacker - When most think of the 4-3 defense, they think of three off-ball linebackers on the second level behind four defensive linemen. With the 4-3 Under, one of those off-ball linebackers shifts down close to the line of scrimmage — still standing — and can rush the passer or drop into coverage to carry a tight end to the safeties in the second level. During Spagnuolo’s second run as a defensive coordinator with the New York Giants, he acquired Olivier Vernon, who played this role regularly. Vernon is a large outside linebacker with limited coverage ability but was able to defend the run very well off of the tight end and could find a lot of success as a pass rusher standing up. If that sounds familiar to you, it should — it’s quite similar to what Justin Houston has offered the Chiefs recently. Houston would be a very solid fit in this role should the Chiefs retain him.

Mike linebacker - Shading between the 1-tech and the 3-tech at the second level, the Mike linebacker’s responsibility in the 4-3 under are to cover a short hook zone in the center of the field and to attack the run. With his limited coverage ability shown this season — as well as a much more familiar four-man front in front of him, like he saw in Dallas — Anthony Hitchens is a solid fit in this role. He’ll be less exposed in coverage, can set the fronts, and attack downhill more readily instead of being asked to cover multiple gaps as the weak-side linebacker in the Chiefs 3-4.

Will linebacker - Sitting behind the weak-side defensive end and the 3-tech, the will linebacker is tasked with keying off of the running back in the run game and kicking out into man coverage or the flats against the pass. This will linebacker is typically kept clean by the defensive linemen in front of him, allowing him to attack as unimpeded to the running back as he can from the weak side of the formation. As a good coverage linebacker and a guy that struggles to stack and shed blockers, Dorian O’Daniel might gain the biggest advantage in a scheme switch. The Chiefs could find themselves in a great position to utilize last year’s third-round pick.

When the Chiefs change to their sub package — something that every NFL team runs as their primary package — this evolves easily. The Chiefs can remove the 1-tech, shift the strong-side defensive end inside, and bring the SAM down — a 4-2 front similar to that they’ve used in the past — or they can remove the strong-side defensive end and stay big in the middle to protect against the run, still as a 4-2 front.

Winners
NFL: Kansas City Chiefs at Denver Broncos
Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
Breeland Speaks is a big winner here, having a true position on the field. His ability to kick inside in the sub package and play the run in the base are hugely beneficial for the Chiefs. Dorian O’Daniel and Anthony Hitchens would be in significantly more comfortable roles for the style of play they are capable of, and that should only improve the Chiefs run defense and coverage ability. Chris Jones is also a big winner, seeing more one-on-ones in the base defense and he too could find snaps in Speaks’ strong-side defensive end role if the Chiefs wanted to develop a more penetrating front on some plays.

Losers
Reggie Ragland simply doesn’t have a home in a 4-3 Under. He isn’t strong enough to set an edge or rushing the passer to play the way Spagnuolo utilizes his SAM, and he’s not a better option at the Mike than Anthony Hitchens. Tanoh Kpassagnon is also not a great option at SAM due to his run defense, and not a good enough pass rusher as a LEO to come off the other EDGE.

With the Chiefs having to make some serious decisions at pass rusher — Justin Houston’s bloated contract and Dee Ford’s impending free agency — they’ll have to decide if they need to keep both, or which position they’ll have to fill this offseason. While the LEO position is arguably the most important in the front, the skillset of the SAM is a difficult one to find.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Maybe, but not neccesarily. One of the older vets that still has something left in the tank plus a draftee works too. Like a Brandon Graham on a couple year deal, something like that. Then a draftee to be depth and get coached up to take that spot next year or the year after. ( I don't know what Graham's deal will be, just throwing a name out.)

I've been thinking about The Patriots, who've managed a team with a GOAT type QB for so long and how they do it. They rarely do big deals, they just draft, develop, draft, develop.

Oh yeah if you lose Ford and Houston you definitely need to draft too. Graham would work, but I wouldn't be surprised if he will still get $10-15m, so you're not going to save any money over Houston once you take account of the dead cap.

It comes down to keep the veteran leadership for the transition or maybe get a guy for roughly the same price who might fit the scheme a little better. If I understand correctly Houston can be easily cut in 2020 so I would probably take the risk on keeping him a year and cut after next season if he can't find a place at either end or SAM.

EDIT: That's purely on if he won't take a restructure or extension which lowers his cap hit. Getting his 2019 cap hit down by 5-6m and keeping him is probably the best possible outcome for me.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Chargem

Oh yeah if you lose Ford and Houston you definitely need to draft too. Graham would work, but I wouldn't be surprised if he will still get $10-15m, so you're not going to save any money over Houston once you take account of the dead cap.

It comes down to keep the veteran leadership for the transition or maybe get a guy for roughly the same price who might fit the scheme a little better. If I understand correctly Houston can be easily cut in 2020 so I would probably take the risk on keeping him a year and cut after next season if he can't find a place at either end or SAM.

EDIT: That's purely on if he won't take a restructure or extension which lowers his cap hit. Getting his 2019 cap hit down by 5-6m and keeping him is probably the best possible outcome for me.

I'll bet Graham doesn't get more than $10m. He's on the wrong side of 30 and is good, solid, but not GREAT. You can't pay Houston the $21m, I would assume he knows that too, so I expect he'd restructure, and I would think at this point in his career, not having cover responsibilities would be something he'd be happy about. So I think Houston would be plan A, Graham plan B with plan A pretty likely. You have no choice but to cut him if he won't restructure, dead money or no.

Barr or KJ Wright would be nice in the SAM role. Neither have the big sack totals that drive LB prices up, but both are solid, versatile veterans, plus players.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I'll bet Graham doesn't get more than $10m. He's on the wrong side of 30 and is good, solid, but not GREAT. You can't pay Houston the $21m, I would assume he knows that too, so I expect he'd restructure, and I would think at this point in his career, not having cover responsibilities would be something he'd be happy about. So I think Houston would be plan A, Graham plan B with plan A pretty likely. You have no choice but to cut him if he won't restructure, dead money or no.

Barr or KJ Wright would be nice in the SAM role. Neither have the big sack totals that drive LB prices up, but both are solid, versatile veterans, plus players.

I'm mostly agreeing with you, but still even if Graham only gets $10m the decision is still $17.5m of cap for Graham or $21m for Houston, you're only saving $3.5m in 2019. And I wouldn't be surprised if Graham does get more than 10m, not necessarily because he deserves it but because the FA market could be very thin for pass rushers.

Hopefully Houston takes a $5-6m restructure and all this is moot.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Chargem

I'm mostly agreeing with you, but still even if Graham only gets $10m the decision is still $17.5m of cap for Graham or $21m for Houston, you're only saving $3.5m in 2019. And I wouldn't be surprised if Graham does get more than 10m, not necessarily because he deserves it but because the FA market could be very thin for pass rushers.

Hopefully Houston takes a $5-6m restructure and all this is moot.

I expect he will.

And I don't like the dead money either, but if he doesn't for some reason, you still need to move on and get out from under it. Even just $3.5m is enough to sign a middle of the road player in a position of need somewhere on the team. At any rate, we need to get out from all the dead money before it's time to pay Patrick.

That being said, I full expect Houston will restructure, giving us some cap relief. How much? who knows.

Also, I kind of like this-Houston could play SAM or RDE, or LDE. Speaks could play either end. Jones could hop outside to DE, either one-or inside at DT. There's some flexibility there that could be useful and confusing for opposing offenses.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I expect he will.

And I don't like the dead money either, but if he doesn't for some reason, you still need to move on and get out from under it. Even just $3.5m is enough to sign a middle of the road player in a position of need somewhere on the team. At any rate, we need to get out from all the dead money before it's time to pay Patrick.

That being said, I full expect Houston will restructure, giving us some cap relief. How much? who knows.

Also, I kind of like this-Houston could play SAM or RDE, or LDE. Speaks could play either end. Jones could hop outside to DE, either one-or inside at DT. There's some flexibility there that could be useful and confusing for opposing offenses.

I don't think this will happen in reality but if a really talented DT or DE falls in the draft, I'd love for the Chiefs to take him in the first round. If it's a DT, kick Jones out to WDE and if it's a DE expect him to start at WDE, expect Houston to be RDE but maybe give him a little bit of SAM time as well depending on how you deal with SAM, draft or FA.

[Chris Meck]

WDE? do you mean 'wide' as in wide 9, or weak-side?

Because I mean RDE as in weak-side for Houston. Just not sure what you mean.

I sure like Jones with only a G to beat to the QB. and if Houston's next to him, they've each got a single man to beat.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

WDE? do you mean 'wide' as in wide 9, or weak-side?

Because I mean RDE as in weak-side for Houston. Just not sure what you mean.

I sure like Jones with only a G to beat to the QB. and if Houston's next to him, they've each got a single man to beat.

Sorry, meant weak side for Jones and strong side for Houston. I wouldn't want to move Jones out to DE necessarily but if an amazing inside talent fell to the back of the 1st round I'd give Jones some snaps against a tackle and see how he does, then expect the drafted DT and Jones to be inside for obvious passing downs.

Jones on the weak side because he's inconsistent against the run.

[oldman]

I'm not sure Houston is going to be a good enough soldier to take $5-6M, but he does want that ring and this is probably the best place for him to get it.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by oldman

I'm not sure Houston is going to be a good enough soldier to take $5-6M, but he does want that ring and this is probably the best place for him to get it.

I think he meant $5-6 million off.

At any rate, there are ways to manipulate the numbers and convert a chunk to signing bonus or what have you and get the number down to something reasonable.

[O.city]

I like Houston a lot and he’s still a really good player

But he’s got some injury history and makes a lot of money

Restructuring or cutting is the way to go

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by O.city

I like Houston a lot and he’s still a really good player

But he’s got some injury history and makes a lot of money

Restructuring or cutting is the way to go

totally.

I doubt he's expecting to make $21.1 million this season. I would imagine he's anticipating a restructure ask or to be cut. I'd think he'd want to restructure and try to win a SB here with Mahomes and a different DC.

I'd think playing RDE where he'll be singled up on a T and not ever be in coverage would sound like a good idea to him, too. Simpler, straightforward, little easier on the knees maybe? I dunno. We'll see.

[O.city]

You’d have to extend him to restructure he’s not taking a straight pay cut.

Depends what he thinks he can get on the open market. He also may not want to go thru a regime change on d here

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by oldman

I'm not sure Houston is going to be a good enough soldier to take $5-6M, but he does want that ring and this is probably the best place for him to get it.

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I think he meant $5-6 million off.

At any rate, there are ways to manipulate the numbers and convert a chunk to signing bonus or what have you and get the number down to something reasonable.

Haha yes I mean't free up $5-6m of cap space, not restructure him down to a $5-6m of cap hit this year.

[Hoover]

I wouldn’t do anything with Houston. Bite the bullet in 2019 then walk away. Don’t compound a bad decision by extending him. We have cap space to work with. It’s not like we are bringing in a bunch of FAs. I can see one or two top free agent signings max.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Hoover

I wouldn’t do anything with Houston. Bite the bullet in 2019 then walk away. Don’t compound a bad decision by extending him. We have cap space to work with. It’s not like we are bringing in a bunch of FAs. I can see one or two top free agent signings max.

The issue is if you extend Jones and Hill it's either Ford or 1 decent FA max.