The 4-3 Under and Current Personnel

[11Chiefs]

Here are some thoughts about transitioning to 4-3. I like the player comparisons. Let these guys play in a scheme and position where they can succeed. My only question... can KPass adjust and find a role.

The 4-3 discussion deserves it's own thread. #megathreadssuck

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/...personnel-fits

Spoiler!

With the hiring of new defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, the Chiefs are likely seeing a switch from their 3-4 defense to the 4-3. That’s caused a lot of consternation amongst Chiefs fans, but where are the biggest problems for the Chiefs in this switch?

I’m going to give you a quick-and-dirty look at where some players can fit, position responsibilities and who are the winners and losers of the formation switch.

The 4-3 variant that Spagnuolo chooses to use is similar to that utilized by his mentor and former Andy Reid defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, called the 4-3 Under. The 4-3 Under front shares quite a few similarities to that of the Chiefs 3-4 defense, making this transition easier.

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

3 Technique - Lining up to the same side as the weak-side defensive end, the 3-tech is a penetrating player capable of beating a guard one on one. This position is typically a player that has a solid get-off, can knife to either side and has the speed to attack the run from the back side. Once again, an easy fit — and potentially a better fit in the 3-4 base defense — for Chris Jones. Jones can utilize his speed and strength to collapse on the run, get after the passer, and find plenty of great matchups one on one in a 4-3 under front.

1 Technique - Opposite of the 3 technique, the 1 technique is typically a 2-gap player, getting doubles against the strong-side guard and center, freeing up the linebackers behind him to make stops. This is usually filled by a player in an “under tackle” or “nose guard” mold, which the Chiefs have in Derrick Nnadi and Xavier Williams. Both will have to command a double team to keep the linebackers clean, and both should be plenty capable.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

SAM linebacker - When most think of the 4-3 defense, they think of three off-ball linebackers on the second level behind four defensive linemen. With the 4-3 Under, one of those off-ball linebackers shifts down close to the line of scrimmage — still standing — and can rush the passer or drop into coverage to carry a tight end to the safeties in the second level. During Spagnuolo’s second run as a defensive coordinator with the New York Giants, he acquired Olivier Vernon, who played this role regularly. Vernon is a large outside linebacker with limited coverage ability but was able to defend the run very well off of the tight end and could find a lot of success as a pass rusher standing up. If that sounds familiar to you, it should — it’s quite similar to what Justin Houston has offered the Chiefs recently. Houston would be a very solid fit in this role should the Chiefs retain him.

Mike linebacker - Shading between the 1-tech and the 3-tech at the second level, the Mike linebacker’s responsibility in the 4-3 under are to cover a short hook zone in the center of the field and to attack the run. With his limited coverage ability shown this season — as well as a much more familiar four-man front in front of him, like he saw in Dallas — Anthony Hitchens is a solid fit in this role. He’ll be less exposed in coverage, can set the fronts, and attack downhill more readily instead of being asked to cover multiple gaps as the weak-side linebacker in the Chiefs 3-4.

Will linebacker - Sitting behind the weak-side defensive end and the 3-tech, the will linebacker is tasked with keying off of the running back in the run game and kicking out into man coverage or the flats against the pass. This will linebacker is typically kept clean by the defensive linemen in front of him, allowing him to attack as unimpeded to the running back as he can from the weak side of the formation. As a good coverage linebacker and a guy that struggles to stack and shed blockers, Dorian O’Daniel might gain the biggest advantage in a scheme switch. The Chiefs could find themselves in a great position to utilize last year’s third-round pick.

When the Chiefs change to their sub package — something that every NFL team runs as their primary package — this evolves easily. The Chiefs can remove the 1-tech, shift the strong-side defensive end inside, and bring the SAM down — a 4-2 front similar to that they’ve used in the past — or they can remove the strong-side defensive end and stay big in the middle to protect against the run, still as a 4-2 front.

Winners
NFL: Kansas City Chiefs at Denver Broncos
Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
Breeland Speaks is a big winner here, having a true position on the field. His ability to kick inside in the sub package and play the run in the base are hugely beneficial for the Chiefs. Dorian O’Daniel and Anthony Hitchens would be in significantly more comfortable roles for the style of play they are capable of, and that should only improve the Chiefs run defense and coverage ability. Chris Jones is also a big winner, seeing more one-on-ones in the base defense and he too could find snaps in Speaks’ strong-side defensive end role if the Chiefs wanted to develop a more penetrating front on some plays.

Losers
Reggie Ragland simply doesn’t have a home in a 4-3 Under. He isn’t strong enough to set an edge or rushing the passer to play the way Spagnuolo utilizes his SAM, and he’s not a better option at the Mike than Anthony Hitchens. Tanoh Kpassagnon is also not a great option at SAM due to his run defense, and not a good enough pass rusher as a LEO to come off the other EDGE.

With the Chiefs having to make some serious decisions at pass rusher — Justin Houston’s bloated contract and Dee Ford’s impending free agency — they’ll have to decide if they need to keep both, or which position they’ll have to fill this offseason. While the LEO position is arguably the most important in the front, the skillset of the SAM is a difficult one to find.

[Hoover]

Is Anthony Barr a bum? Yeah not many sacks but I always thought he was a good OLB for the Vikings

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Hoover

Is Anthony Barr a bum? Yeah not many sacks but I always thought he was a good OLB for the Vikings

He's an off the ball linebacker, I wouldn't care about sacks. Not sure why he is in the bum category either, guess he isn't premium though.

[Mecca]

Anthony Barr is a solid player for a 4-3, he's big and has a lot of athletic ability.

If you signed him on a solid deal he'd be a good fit for the sam backer position and then you could save some money getting rid of other guys.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Mecca

Anthony Barr is a solid player for a 4-3, he's big and has a lot of athletic ability.

If you signed him on a solid deal he'd be a good fit for the sam backer position and then you could save some money getting rid of other guys.

Former top 10 pick though, he got paid $12.3m last year on his 5th year option. Think that's off the table.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by Chargem

Former top 10 pick though, he got paid $12.3m last year on his 5th year option. Think that's off the table.

Off ball backers rarely get paid massive coin now days, we'll see though.

[mcaj22]

I put Barr in the lesser tier cause his play fell off this year

A) he was a liability this season
B) got outplayed by a younger guy
C) He is was injured, most likely playing injured.

But a combo of those things made me believe he could be fools gold if you overpay for his services.

[mcaj22]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

a lot of the guys in your premium list are unlikely to reach free agency, at least without a tag.
Trey Flowers might, just because the Patriots don't shell out big money for anyone not named Brady.
Brandon Graham might, and he'd be a nice fit for a year or two. Thomas, same thing. Honey Badger...? maybe. Landon Collins I'd love but I don't know that we could afford it. A lot of your dumpster dive picks might be nice placekeepers until draftees were up to speed.

Who on that list is getting the tag?

Frank Clark and Grady Jarrett? Joyner was tagged this year there is no way they are tagging a safety two years in a row. Kwon is definitely hitting FA.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by mcaj22

I put Barr in the lesser tier cause his play fell off this year

A) he was a liability this season
B) got outplayed by a younger guy
C) He is was injured, most likely playing injured.

But a combo of those things made me believe he could be fools gold if you overpay for his services.

yeah had a hammy or something. Got killed by Gurley early in the season.

Also read that he wants to be an OLB in the 3/4 - which means sacks = cash.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Hoover

yeah had a hammy or something. Got killed by Gurley early in the season.

Also read that he wants to be an OLB in the 3/4 - which means sacks = cash.

yeah, well I want a solid gold toilet, but it's just not in the cards, is it, baby?

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

yeah, well I want a solid gold toilet, but it's just not in the cards, is it, baby?

Oh I agree. I thought it was odd. I was thinking he would be a good drab for us.

[scho63]

How do some of you guys find the time to know about so many players, both college and pro?

Fantasy sports?
College devotee?
Just love the ins and out of football?

I've never had that depth of knowledge no matter how much I watched any sport. God bless you guys for your fanaticism.

[jaa1025]

WDE--Ford
3TDT--Jones (Think Donald) Only has one gap to occupy/Hamilton
1TDT--Nnadi/Williams (Nose Guard type)
SDE--Speaks/Kpass

SLB--???
MLB--Hitchens (much better fit than ILB 3-4)
WLB--DoD (born for this position)


I'm not sure if putting Houston at the SLB position is worth the huge cap. I'd rather have the cap space so they will need to fill that and get some depth at all 3 LB positions. If Bailey wants a cheap deal then he could rotate in at the 3T or SDE postion IMO.

The front 7 I feel is much better suited for this than Sutton's scheme. This could be a surprisingly good defense next year. If they can get depth and fill out the backside of that defense, they will jump into the teens.

[Chris Meck]

What if Veach goes full Madden here?

Cuts Houston, tags and Trades Ford? That's a lot of savings, enough for two solid FA pickups.

Grabs a SAM and a DE in FA better suited for this defense.

I'm not certain he will, and I don't know how I feel about it, just considering.

I mean, what would Belichick do? He'd have never signed those contracts in the first place, but he'd sure as **** say goodbye to both.

[Chargem]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

What if Veach goes full Madden here?

Cuts Houston, tags and Trades Ford? That's a lot of savings, enough for two solid FA pickups.

Grabs a SAM and a DE in FA better suited for this defense.

I'm not certain he will, and I don't know how I feel about it, just considering.

I mean, what would Belichick do? He'd have never signed those contracts in the first place, but he'd sure as **** say goodbye to both.

I mean if you lose both Ford and Houston, you probably need to go big on an FA beast at DE, like a big splash like Flowers or Ansah or Lawrence if those guys hit FA. To me the question is essentially would you rather have Houston for $21m in 2019 (with a chance he restructures a bit) or would you rather have Lawrence for $28m (including the dead cap from Houston).

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Chargem

I mean if you lose both Ford and Houston, you probably need to go big on an FA beast at DE, like a big splash like Flowers or Ansah or Lawrence if those guys hit FA. To me the question is essentially would you rather have Houston for $21m in 2019 (with a chance he restructures a bit) or would you rather have Lawrence for $28m (including the dead cap from Houston).

Maybe, but not neccesarily. One of the older vets that still has something left in the tank plus a draftee works too. Like a Brandon Graham on a couple year deal, something like that. Then a draftee to be depth and get coached up to take that spot next year or the year after. ( I don't know what Graham's deal will be, just throwing a name out.)

I've been thinking about The Patriots, who've managed a team with a GOAT type QB for so long and how they do it. They rarely do big deals, they just draft, develop, draft, develop.