The 4-3 Under and Current Personnel

[11Chiefs]

Here are some thoughts about transitioning to 4-3. I like the player comparisons. Let these guys play in a scheme and position where they can succeed. My only question... can KPass adjust and find a role.

The 4-3 discussion deserves it's own thread. #megathreadssuck

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/...personnel-fits

Spoiler!

With the hiring of new defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, the Chiefs are likely seeing a switch from their 3-4 defense to the 4-3. That’s caused a lot of consternation amongst Chiefs fans, but where are the biggest problems for the Chiefs in this switch?

I’m going to give you a quick-and-dirty look at where some players can fit, position responsibilities and who are the winners and losers of the formation switch.

The 4-3 variant that Spagnuolo chooses to use is similar to that utilized by his mentor and former Andy Reid defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, called the 4-3 Under. The 4-3 Under front shares quite a few similarities to that of the Chiefs 3-4 defense, making this transition easier.

Weak-side defensive end - The Weak-side defensive end — also called the “LEO” — in the 4-3 Under is typically the best pass rusher on the team. Putting his hand in the dirt, this defender is responsible for weak-side run contain opposite the tight end and getting after the quarterback. With the Chiefs current personnel, this would be an easy fill for Dee Ford. Limited coverage responsibility, ability to set an edge, and — most importantly — a great pass rusher are all things that we’ve seen from Dee Ford this season.

3 Technique - Lining up to the same side as the weak-side defensive end, the 3-tech is a penetrating player capable of beating a guard one on one. This position is typically a player that has a solid get-off, can knife to either side and has the speed to attack the run from the back side. Once again, an easy fit — and potentially a better fit in the 3-4 base defense — for Chris Jones. Jones can utilize his speed and strength to collapse on the run, get after the passer, and find plenty of great matchups one on one in a 4-3 under front.

1 Technique - Opposite of the 3 technique, the 1 technique is typically a 2-gap player, getting doubles against the strong-side guard and center, freeing up the linebackers behind him to make stops. This is usually filled by a player in an “under tackle” or “nose guard” mold, which the Chiefs have in Derrick Nnadi and Xavier Williams. Both will have to command a double team to keep the linebackers clean, and both should be plenty capable.

Strong-side defensive end - Lined up to the strong side of the offense, this defensive end will be between the tight end and the tackle, and their primary responsibility is as a run stuffer with a minimal amount of pass rush ability. This is actually a perfect fit to try to maximize last year’s second-round pick Breeland Speaks. Speaks is solid against the run, but looks uncomfortable in space, something he won’t have to contend with often lined up in this spot. With some wanting to kick Speaks inside to 5-tech in the Chiefs 3-4 defense, this situation presents a better opportunity for Speaks to develop as a starting player for the Chiefs.

SAM linebacker - When most think of the 4-3 defense, they think of three off-ball linebackers on the second level behind four defensive linemen. With the 4-3 Under, one of those off-ball linebackers shifts down close to the line of scrimmage — still standing — and can rush the passer or drop into coverage to carry a tight end to the safeties in the second level. During Spagnuolo’s second run as a defensive coordinator with the New York Giants, he acquired Olivier Vernon, who played this role regularly. Vernon is a large outside linebacker with limited coverage ability but was able to defend the run very well off of the tight end and could find a lot of success as a pass rusher standing up. If that sounds familiar to you, it should — it’s quite similar to what Justin Houston has offered the Chiefs recently. Houston would be a very solid fit in this role should the Chiefs retain him.

Mike linebacker - Shading between the 1-tech and the 3-tech at the second level, the Mike linebacker’s responsibility in the 4-3 under are to cover a short hook zone in the center of the field and to attack the run. With his limited coverage ability shown this season — as well as a much more familiar four-man front in front of him, like he saw in Dallas — Anthony Hitchens is a solid fit in this role. He’ll be less exposed in coverage, can set the fronts, and attack downhill more readily instead of being asked to cover multiple gaps as the weak-side linebacker in the Chiefs 3-4.

Will linebacker - Sitting behind the weak-side defensive end and the 3-tech, the will linebacker is tasked with keying off of the running back in the run game and kicking out into man coverage or the flats against the pass. This will linebacker is typically kept clean by the defensive linemen in front of him, allowing him to attack as unimpeded to the running back as he can from the weak side of the formation. As a good coverage linebacker and a guy that struggles to stack and shed blockers, Dorian O’Daniel might gain the biggest advantage in a scheme switch. The Chiefs could find themselves in a great position to utilize last year’s third-round pick.

When the Chiefs change to their sub package — something that every NFL team runs as their primary package — this evolves easily. The Chiefs can remove the 1-tech, shift the strong-side defensive end inside, and bring the SAM down — a 4-2 front similar to that they’ve used in the past — or they can remove the strong-side defensive end and stay big in the middle to protect against the run, still as a 4-2 front.

Winners
NFL: Kansas City Chiefs at Denver Broncos
Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
Breeland Speaks is a big winner here, having a true position on the field. His ability to kick inside in the sub package and play the run in the base are hugely beneficial for the Chiefs. Dorian O’Daniel and Anthony Hitchens would be in significantly more comfortable roles for the style of play they are capable of, and that should only improve the Chiefs run defense and coverage ability. Chris Jones is also a big winner, seeing more one-on-ones in the base defense and he too could find snaps in Speaks’ strong-side defensive end role if the Chiefs wanted to develop a more penetrating front on some plays.

Losers
Reggie Ragland simply doesn’t have a home in a 4-3 Under. He isn’t strong enough to set an edge or rushing the passer to play the way Spagnuolo utilizes his SAM, and he’s not a better option at the Mike than Anthony Hitchens. Tanoh Kpassagnon is also not a great option at SAM due to his run defense, and not a good enough pass rusher as a LEO to come off the other EDGE.

With the Chiefs having to make some serious decisions at pass rusher — Justin Houston’s bloated contract and Dee Ford’s impending free agency — they’ll have to decide if they need to keep both, or which position they’ll have to fill this offseason. While the LEO position is arguably the most important in the front, the skillset of the SAM is a difficult one to find.

[AssEaterChief]

Originally Posted by dj56dt58

Hitchens excelled in a 43

What???

When? and where?

Dallas? LOL

What is your definition of "excelled"?

Once Sean Lee got injured (one of the smartest linebackers in the league) their defense was poor at best with Hitchens replacing him.

Dallas's defense also got better this year....losing him didn't seem to hurt them if he was so awesome in a 4-3.

Hitchens career stats including this season... 5 seasons, 1 INT, 8 passes defensed, 3 Forced fumbles, 3.5 sacks, and 447 combined tackles. The most positive thing you can say about him is that he had a career year in tackles, on one of the worst defenses in the league.

He is average at best in any defense he will be put in. Most of the league thought the signing was an absolute joke when the Chiefs made it and that was proven correct this season.

[staylor26]

Wtf? Hitches was awesome in 2017. What a ****ing moron.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by AssEaterChief

What???

When? and where?

Dallas? LOL

What is your definition of "excelled"?

Once Sean Lee got injured (one of the smartest linebackers in the league) their defense was poor at best with Hitchens replacing him.

Dallas's defense also got better this year....losing him didn't seem to hurt them if he was so awesome in a 4-3.

Hitchens career stats including this season... 5 seasons, 1 INT, 8 passes defensed, 3 Forced fumbles, 3.5 sacks, and 447 combined tackles. The most positive thing you can say about him is that he had a career year in tackles, on one of the worst defenses in the league.

He is average at best in any defense he will be put in. Most of the league thought the signing was an absolute joke when the Chiefs made it and that was proven correct this season.

moran.

[kcclone]

My thoughts:

Houston is a DE in the 4-3. He has zero ability to drop back and cover as a LB, but he's pretty physical in the run game and can set the edge.

Dee Ford will not be able to play DE in a 4-3. Way too soft in the run game. He might be able to transition to LB. He's too expensive to keep as a pass rush only DE. Realistically, probably a tag & trade guy with the new scheme. If we could get a pick or any defensive starter for him, that would be great. Pass rushers are in demand, so I would think he would have some good value out there.

Speaks and Kpass may make fine DE's. They were never OLB's so it makes you wonder if we saw this move coming.

Jones can play DT or DE in a 4-3.

Nnadi will make the transition easily to DT.

Bailey is expensive. I would let him go.

Williams and Hamilton can be solid DT depth, and Speaks/K-pass can probably play the 3 technique on passing downs.

DOD, Hitchens and Niemann will be fine. Ragland will need to go. We'll need to draft 1 and find at least 2 FA at LB.

DB's aren't affected too much by the change, but obviously we need to find at least 1-2 CB's and a safety.

We will need to go heavy on D in this draft, and hopefully it's successful so we can start to balance out our drafts after that. By 2020 we'll need to be thinking about drafting some OL and offensive players as well.

This draft we'll probably take 1-2 CB's, 1 safety, 1 LB, 1 DT, 1 RB most likely in no particular order.

Hopefully DOD, Speaks, Watts, Ward and Smith are all ready to contribute this year. Niemann would be a huge bonus as well.

[JohnnyV13]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

You don't put Dee Ford at DE. He's too small. You keep him at WLB and put Tanoh in at DE. I think the starting lineup going into training camp would be:

SDE - Allen Bailey/Breeland Speaks
SDT - Derrick Nnadi/Xavier Williams
WDT - Chris Jones/Justin Hamilton
WDE - Tanoh Kpassagnon
SLB - Justin Houston/Frank Zombo
MLB - (Sigh.) Anthony Hitchens/Reggie Ragland/Ben Niemann
WLB - Dee Ford/Dorian O'Daniel

I think the personnel are a good fit for a 4-3.

I disagree. Dee Ford fits as a 9 wide DE in a 4-3 under. Remember, Dwight Freeney played DE and is about the same size as Ford

[Chiefnj2]

Originally Posted by Bewbies

This place has turned into the Dumb****istan of football takes.

You aren’t cutting all your best pass rushers cause they make too much when you have the best QB in the NFL on a rookie contract. They’ll be gone when Mahomes gets paid. Jesus.

Speaks isn't a 15 sack guy?

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by JohnnyV13

I disagree. Dee Ford fits as a 9 wide DE in a 4-3 under. Remember, Dwight Freeney played DE and is about the same size as Ford

he would, if you couldn't block him with a WR.

The only thing Ford does on a plus level is blow past an OT for a sack. That's it.

A part of why we were so bad against the run is that all you had to do was pull a guard out and run on him. He NEVER ****ing set an edge, ever. He's a really poor run defender.

It's not about "Does he have the size requirements" its "Can he do it", and the answer is, no, no he can't."

And the wide 9 stuff- You can't run that shit every down. You don't want to spread yourself out like that, leaving all that space for running lanes. I mean, offenses work to spread defenses out, you can't just hand it to them.

He's a situational pass rusher. That's all. He'd be a fine piece to keep around if it wasn't going to cost you $15 million.

[L.A. Chieffan]

Good article, well written. I follow this guy on Twitter. Is he on this site?

[Chris Meck]

As I've said, I think at this point in Houston's career, he's probably a RDE in a 4-3 under. I also think you're lining he and Jones up next to each other and forcing the line to block them 1 on 1 unless they design pulls or double teams to deal with them, which should give the right side of the line with Nnadi and Speaks better physical leverage with the offensive linemen having to start plays moving sideways.

However, thinking about Spags' tendencies to move guys around to different spots is interesting; Houston could indeed play Sam some. Speaks could be 3 tech. Jones could be a DE. Nnadi could do some 3 tech if you were looking to exploit a matchup somewhere else on the line for Jones.

We're really just short a SAM, and it's possible that Niemann could play there, we just don't know yet. Will Spags go light at that spot or heavy? Or will he vary this position due to down and distance?
Kpass may yet show something at DE as he was miscast at OLB.

I'll bet somewhere in that first 4 picks we draft a LB for that spot. The other 3 likely are secondary guys, and probably CB's.

I'd think we could pick up a SAM in FA.

[Chris Meck]

And the more I think about it, the madder Sutton's front 7 scheme pisses me off. The **** was he thinking, trying to have 260-270 lb. men cover running backs in space?! How the hell did he think that was going to work?

[mcaj22]

Upcoming defense FAs that stick out and could help in the 4-3

Premium:
Kwon Alexander
Ezekiel Ansah (Didn't Andy and Dorsey love this guy? It was him or Fisher in '13?)
Brandon Graham
Frank Clark
Trey Flowers
Grady Jarrett
Sheldon Richardson
Lamarcus Joyner
Earl Thomas
Honey Badger
Landin Collins

Dumpster diving (vets, bums, guys coming off injury):
Cam Wake
KJ Wright
Thomas Davis
Manti Teo (laugh it up)
Preston Brown
Anthony Barr
Dante Fowler
Michael Johnson
Chris Long
Bruce Irvin

The corner FA market is absolutely terrible. The best available might be 31 year old Kareem Jackson. But the young guys like Ronald Darby, Steven Nelson and Bryce Callahan are going to be hilariously overpaid for their talent. You can probably take a flyer on some guys that carry risk (Mo Claiborne, Jason Verrett, etc)

[Chris Meck]

a lot of the guys in your premium list are unlikely to reach free agency, at least without a tag.
Trey Flowers might, just because the Patriots don't shell out big money for anyone not named Brady.
Brandon Graham might, and he'd be a nice fit for a year or two. Thomas, same thing. Honey Badger...? maybe. Landon Collins I'd love but I don't know that we could afford it. A lot of your dumpster dive picks might be nice placekeepers until draftees were up to speed.

[O.city]

I’d take kJ Wright

[scho63]

Originally Posted by saphojunkie

Excuse me, not release.

If they don't re-sign him, and lose him to free agency.

Also, you forgot to throw in something racist.

Stupid honky cracker redneck ****....

Happy now?

[Bowser]

Originally Posted by O.city

I’d take kJ Wright

Yes