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Old 01-11-2013, 03:09 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Question for the pro-life crowd...

I've been reading a lot about abortion this week, particularly a lot from the pro-life perspective about right to life and all that jazz. I've been doing a lot of reflection on the topic, so I was hoping I could get some earnest reflection back from you.

I am pro-choice, of course, but I see the logic of the pro-life argument, even as I disagree with it.

One major issue I've with the pro-life crowd, however, is that this crowd almost always tends to be particularly conservative and anti-government. Which, to my mind, creates a practical issue with your position.

Now, I know what you're thinking, and no, I'm not going where you think -- I don't like argument often made by pro-choicers that "conservatives are supposed to be the small government party, yet here they are supporting governmental power over every woman's medical decision" because, while I think that's a fair point, I think you could easily argue that most people have exceptions to their ideologies; that's just the way people work. It's a complex world, and exceptions reign -- if I'm a hardcore conservative, I think it's still reasonable for me to support a ban on abortion due to the intensity and importance of the issue, even if it might conflict with my otherwise stout anti-government views. So I don't adopt that argument.

Here's my big hang-up with the conservative pro-life position:

A conservative pro-lifer simultaneously believes that:

(1.) Life is sacrosanct, and must be protected and preserved, and

(2.) government should either
(a.) provide as little or minimal economic assistance and relief to the people as possible, or
(b.) not be in the business of providing economic relief and services to people at all. (This is more of a libertarian position.)
To me, this perspective says simply: every soul with a chance to be born must be born, but once you're born, you're on your own.

Most fetuses who are aborted for non-medical reasons are most likely being aborted because their potential families do not want them for personal or even economic reasons. I'm not excusing this, but it is what it is. Forcing them to be born with an abortion ban puts them in these shit situations, and it's going to lead to a greater possibility of poor education, poverty, and crime than those who are born to families that actually wanted them.

Other times, they'll be effectively orphaned as the families who don't want them leave them in the street or put them up for adoption. Some will be adopted, but adopting is an insanely hard practice (and it should be -- you don't want to risk exploitation of these children), it's expensive, and it's nowhere remotely close to the rate of the children available for adoption -- and that's right now, without an abortion ban.

There's also the education perspective, for instance. As it stands now, most conservatives would probably side with getting rid of the Department of Education and embracing fully private schools. That puts innocent children whose only crime was to come out of the wrong vagina at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to being the properly-adjusted productive soul that pro-lifers believe every soul should be.

So my question to the conservative pro-lifers among us:

Assuming we ever achieve your dream of an abortion ban, are there policies that YOU PERSONALLY SUPPORT to provide aid to children who have been born under the ban that otherwise wouldn't have?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful answers.

I know this is an abortion thread, but my hope is that this thread can be reflective and respectful, even as we might start to disagree.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:26 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
What's the problem with government programs providing ample assistance to children who wouldn't have been born before the abortion ban?

I'm anxious to hear what conservative pro-lifers will be suggesting in this thread.
That's the problem right there. Money doesn't grow on trees and this country is broke. Everything costs money and someone will have to foot the bill for these. That's the problem you liberals and neo-cons just don't understand.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:02 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
You didn't answer my question.
The answer is no, but of course I'd love to see what you had/have in mind.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:03 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
I don't negotiate with terrorists and murderers, D.
Come again?
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:06 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
I personally support adoption. I support charity. I do not support government economic assistance.
The problem is, we offer both those things now, without any abortion ban in place.

And well, so let me ask you that: do you think we offer them adequately?
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:11 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by nstygma View Post
what is a pro-life conservative? not everybody fits neatly into a label.

i support emphasis on personal responsibility. and the enablers need to be beaten.
Well, pro-life would be somebody who would prefer a ban on abortion written into law. There might be some disagreement over whether there would be medical exceptions, but there it is.

A conservative is outlined in (2a.) and (2b.) in the OP.
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:12 AM   #51
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I don't get your point of view, ClevelandBronco.

You are essentially reducing your perspective to the idea that pro-choicers can't be reasoned with and do not deserve engagement from you -- while you yourself are pro-choice.

Maybe you're just punting on the subject and getting in some drive-bys while you can, I don't know.
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:56 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nstygma View Post
what is a pro-life conservative? not everybody fits neatly into a label.

i support emphasis on personal responsibility. and the enablers need to be beaten.
What happens when the enablers start to out-number the responsible?
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:18 AM   #53
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I guess I would just like to know why women think that the pro-life movement takes away their choice at all. Are all abortions the product of rape? I believe that number is around 5% or so. Don't women have enough respect for themselves and smarts to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activities that will get them pregnant, or are they immune from the consequences of that choice as well? Did the feminist moment ever occur or are women still victims of all sex?

The pro-life position for me contends that life is sacrosanct. When we as a society believe in justification for any murder, it chews away at our moral fiber. We wonder why kids have become numb to violence and we see things like the shootings at Newtown and we're surprised? We want our government to protect our liberty, but it undermines itself by not protecting life (abortion, drone killings, capital punishment), the most essential liberty there is.
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Old 01-13-2013, 10:24 AM   #54
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Direckshun, thank you for bringing up this discussion. Often this type of threads end up name callings, personal attacks, or worse. You have made efforts trying to stay level head the first four pages.

To me, banning abortion is like prohibition in the 30s, there will always someone get pregnant and need to get rid of the baby. For the government to ban abortion successfully, it needs to enforce several programs in safe sex, personal responsibility, personal finance, etc. As you mentioned in the OP, many used abortion as an easy way out to avoid a difficult situation in life. Because of the advance technology in fetus monitoring, expected parents know ahead if the baby would have any abnormality while forming in the womb.

For your question, I think the government already some kind of assistance programs for the low income family. Take Octomom for example, she is well provided if she didn't blow the money away foolishly. As Iwowanian mentioned, if we need to keep those murderers in death row as long as possible, why don't we keep those kids alive.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:23 PM   #55
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As far as I can tell, D, you're basically asking me how much I'd be willing to pay to get you to stop murdering babies. As I said, I don't negotiate with terrorists and murderers. Neither do I negotiate with extortionists.

I'm still struggling to figure out how on earth you could fit my disgust into a pro-choice box.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:26 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
The problem is, we offer both those things now, without any abortion ban in place.

And well, so let me ask you that: do you think we offer them adequately?
Yes.

Once upon a time, the abortion rate was near zero, the government did not provide welfare programs, and children were not dying in the streets.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:36 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
As far as I can tell, D, you're basically asking me how much I'd be willing to pay to get you to stop murdering babies. As I said, I don't negotiate with terrorists and murderers. Neither do I negotiate with extortionists.

I'm still struggling to figure out how on earth you could fit my disgust into a pro-choice box.
i was struggling with my response and read yours....Yours will work for me just fine.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:38 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by DementedLogic View Post
Yes.

Once upon a time, the abortion rate was near zero, the government did not provide welfare programs, and children were not dying in the streets.
You are right, they were working in mines and shoe factories.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
I guess I would just like to know why women think that the pro-life movement takes away their choice at all. Are all abortions the product of rape? I believe that number is around 5% or so.
IIRC, it's 2-3%. Yet 7% are on their 3rd+ abortion.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco View Post
As far as I can tell, D, you're basically asking me how much I'd be willing to pay to get you to stop murdering babies. As I said, I don't negotiate with terrorists and murderers. Neither do I negotiate with extortionists.

I'm still struggling to figure out how on earth you could fit my disgust into a pro-choice box.
D is trying to make you look small because your concept of protecting what you consider a viable human being is actually stupid because you won't accept the responsibility for it.

And slightly off topic, but any politician that thinks my tax money should go to pay for government funded abortions deserves a bullet in the head.

And I'm pro-choice.
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