Offense/Defense (Philosophy based)

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by Aspengc8

Having a dominant NT, and OLB's that can get to the QB, will anchor a good 3-4. You can always find 'tweener' 4-3 DT's/DE's that can convert to 3-4. Also your ILB's need to be able to shed a block if lineman get to their level. Thank god DJ takes good angles.. him nor belcher shed very well. The other big problem is if we want to bring Houstin & Hali, then belcher is in coverage. Dude is bad in coverage. I really think Powe & Poe need to be on the field when we are in any 3-4 alignment. I'd put smith out there over tjack or any of those other clowns.

What it all comes down to is...our D-line SUCKS, for having, what, 3 1st round picks and a 3rd?? it's woeful.

I think that the 2-gap RAC runs is a fine defense, if you have the people to pull it off. Tyson Jackson, Glenn Dorsey, Jovan Belcher, Kendrick Lewis, Javier Arenas...I don't care if Buddy Ryan was running a 46, or if Tony Dungy himself were here putting in the Tampa 2, or if Dick LeBeau came over and put the zone blitz in - the defensive talent here right now is terrible. We have Houston, Hali, DJ, Berry, Flowers, and (maybe) Poe. That's it. That's the only talent on that defense, period.

Improve the talent, and it almost doesn't matter what system you run (though, this roster is ideally suited to the Phillips-esque classic 1-gap.)

As for offense, I'm a big fan of the Coryell/Gillman/Turner tree of attacking offense, going after the Defense through mismatches created by sub packages, shifts and motions, sending 5 receivers, 2 TE/H-back power running, etc. To make that work, there really needs to be an intelligent QB who can make all the throws (guys who have success in that system - Aikman, Fouts, Warner, Green, Jaworski, Theismann, etc. - were all very intelligent QBs, and classic dropback passers. Didn't need to run around much...because they usually didnthe right thing with the ball.)

I think the Coryell offenses really draw elements from every other offense - elements of the WCO and the Run and Shoot are there (timing, QB/WR reads, spot throws, etc), as are elements of the power running game found in the Perkins-Erhardt, which is what we run now.

Bigger fan of the Saunders-variant; Al was a bit more conservative, a bit more balanced than, say, Mike Martz, who was going to get Kurt Warner killed - but Al wasn't as conservative with it as, say, Joe Gibbs. Cam Cameron would be a good choice for OC...but I don't even know where he coaches anymore.

The problem with us using the Coryell is (here it comes) : that offense is so complex, it really does take 3 years to get it down. Alex Smith had some good success with it when Norv was his OC that one year, but Smith had already been in the league a few years when that got thrown at him, and I'm sure Norv 'dumbed it down' some. Idk...whatever happens, it's gonna take a new QB. And a new GM, with a new HC and new coordinators. That's all I really know...

[bobbything]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

As for offense, I'm a big fan of the Coryell/Gillman/Turner tree of attacking offense, going after the Defense through mismatches created by sub packages, shifts and motions, sending 5 receivers, 2 TE/H-back power running, etc. To make that work, there really needs to be an intelligent QB who can make all the throws (guys who have success in that system - Aikman, Fouts, Warner, Green, Jaworski, Theismann, etc. - were all very intelligent QBs, and classic dropback passers. Didn't need to run around much...because they usually didnthe right thing with the ball.)

I think the Coryell offenses really draw elements from every other offense - elements of the WCO and the Run and Shoot are there (timing, QB/WR reads, spot throws, etc), as are elements of the power running game found in the Perkins-Erhardt, which is what we run now.

Bigger fan of the Saunders-variant; Al was a bit more conservative, a bit more balanced than, say, Mike Martz, who was going to get Kurt Warner killed - but Al wasn't as conservative with it as, say, Joe Gibbs. Cam Cameron would be a good choice for OC...but I don't even know where he coaches anymore.

This.

Saunders' version was about as complete as I've seen an offense. You don't see what he did at all in the NFL anymore. All the pre-snap motions and shifts really revealed what the defense was doing and they were able to exploit it.

They'd line Hall, Gonzalez, and Kennison up in the backfield, then have Priest in the slot. Then, they'd shift and you'd see exactly who was covering who, what kind of defense they were running, etc. I loved watching the pre-snap as much as the offense itself because it forced the defense to reveal their intentions (for the most part).

Biggest drawbacks I saw were that with all the motions and formation shifts, it used up nearly all of the playclock. And we used a lot of unnecessary timeouts because of it. Also, the play that was called was the play that was ran. There were multiple reads in this offense, but there was no audible allowed.

It really demonstrated how smart Trent Green was. Rarely did we run a play and wait for someone to get open. We'd throw a pass into a spot where the receiver was supposed to be. Early on, that resulted in lots o' interceptions. But in time, it worked great because it allowed the receivers to adjust their patterns on the fly and Green was in such harmony with everyone on the offense that it worked out very well.

I loved our run blocking scheme too. All the pulls we did to the left were great. Fortunately, we had arguably the best offensive line in the league which allowed that. Holmes was great, but the line did all the heavy lifting.

I'd take Saunders back in a heartbeat. Give him 2 years to implement the system, trade/FA/draft accordingly, and I bet he'd have this offense on a roll by year two.

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by bobbything

I'd take Saunders back in a heartbeat. Give him 2 years to implement the system, trade/FA/draft accordingly, and I bet he'd have this offense on a roll by year two.

He had Kennison and Morton for 2 years and fielded a top 5 offense.

That alone is amazing.

He took what he had and made something of it.

You always heard how big an azzhole he was but nothing other than that.

Haley was a spittle spewing tirade monster and dreams of having the output Saunders managed...

[bobbything]

Originally Posted by Rausch

He had Kennison and Morton for 2 years and fielded a top 5 offense.

That alone is amazing.

He took what he had and made something of it.

You always heard how big an azzhole he was but nothing other than that.

Haley was a spittle spewing tirade monster and dreams of having the output Saunders managed...

Not only top 5, they were #1 in the league in points scored in 2002, 2003...#2 in 2004, and #6 in 2005. We were also top 5 in the league during his tenure in time of possession. And our defense still sucked.

I don't remember ever hearing that Saunders was an asshole. In fact, I always heard he was one of the nicest people on the staff. I could be wrong though.

He didn't do well in Washington. He was fired after two years but was saddled with Jason Campbell.

If he were allowed to draft who he wanted, and spend on FA, I bet we'd have a top 10 offense by 2015. But I'd want a HC in here who would focus on defense too. Vermeil put too much emphasis on offense. Though, we didn't ask much of our defense. Only, "don't give up 30 points per game".

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by bobbything

This.

Saunders' version was about as complete as I've seen an offense. You don't see what he did at all in the NFL anymore. All the pre-snap motions and shifts really revealed what the defense was doing and they were able to exploit it.

They'd line Hall, Gonzalez, and Kennison up in the backfield, then have Priest in the slot. Then, they'd shift and you'd see exactly who was covering who, what kind of defense they were running, etc. I loved watching the pre-snap as much as the offense itself because it forced the defense to reveal their intentions (for the most part).

Biggest drawbacks I saw were that with all the motions and formation shifts, it used up nearly all of the playclock. And we used a lot of unnecessary timeouts because of it. Also, the play that was called was the play that was ran. There were multiple reads in this offense, but there was no audible allowed.

It really demonstrated how smart Trent Green was. Rarely did we run a play and wait for someone to get open. We'd throw a pass into a spot where the receiver was supposed to be. Early on, that resulted in lots o' interceptions. But in time, it worked great because it allowed the receivers to adjust their patterns on the fly and Green was in such harmony with everyone on the offense that it worked out very well.

I loved our run blocking scheme too. All the pulls we did to the left were great. Fortunately, we had arguably the best offensive line in the league which allowed that. Holmes was great, but the line did all the heavy lifting.

I'd take Saunders back in a heartbeat. Give him 2 years to implement the system, trade/FA/draft accordingly, and I bet he'd have this offense on a roll by year two.

Those Al Saunders/Trent Green offenses were artistic masterpieces, as perfect and assured as a Monet or a ****ing Rembrandt.

Roaf, Shields. Weigman, Roaf, and Tait, kicking out on the screen as Trent baits the defenders just long enough for Preist to fake a block and slip behind the big guys, then Trent flips the ball over to him perfectly...

*sigh* They made every screen beautiful, every sweep, every toss. Power 90 O ISO was perfect...every single time.

Those pre-snap motions and adjustments would give Belichick and the Ryans FITS, because it would reveal the defense's true intentions - it took away what is really the defense's biggest advantage.

We lost 1 fumble in 2003, iirc...one. One fumble lost. Or maybe it was one fumble TOTAL and NONE lost..

Point is, it was explosive AND ball control...conservative AND aggressive. We could control the clock and run the ball, OR run a fast-break down the field to score quick. We used the ENTIRE field, always. Outside, the seam, the flats - nothing was off limits.

That was a GREAT offense...but we had the players to pull it off. We had the QB...

[bobbything]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

That was a GREAT offense...but we had the players to pull it off. We had the QB...

This is the crux of it all. If you look at the other places Saunders has tried to implement a similar system, it never worked out that well because of the QB or because he wasn't there long enough. Jason Campbell in Washington, Carson Palmer in Oakland. He's been neutered with time or the wrong QB. Hell, he only got one season in St. Louis. I'd kill to have Saunders here with Sam Bradford.

His best season was when he was a consultant for the Ravens. IIRC, Cam Cameron just got there.

I don't know why he doesn't really get a fair shake. Maybe it's because his system is too complex, takes too much time to implement and no team wants to wait 2-3 years for it to get up and running. Maybe he's an ass and doesn't interview well. I don't know. He's been fired or demoted at every job he's had since the Chiefs. Something's not right.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by bobbything

This is the crux of it all. If you look at the other places Saunders has tried to implement a similar system, it never worked out that well because of the QB or because he wasn't there long enough. Jason Campbell in Washington, Carson Palmer in Oakland. He's been neutered with time or the wrong QB. Hell, he only got one season in St. Louis. I'd kill to have Saunders here with Sam Bradford.

His best season was when he was a consultant for the Ravens. IIRC, Cam Cameron just got there.

I don't know why he doesn't really get a fair shake. Maybe it's because his system is too complex, takes too much time to implement and no team wants to wait 2-3 years for it to get up and running. Maybe he's an ass and doesn't interview well. I don't know. He's been fired or demoted at every job he's had since the Chiefs. Something's not right.

I've some things about him, about why he got passed over for the HC job in favor of Herm...about why he hasn't been able to keep a job with anyone not named Marty or Herm...and about why he will never be a HC in the NFL (and this was 6 years ago)

[Aspengc8]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

What it all comes down to is...our D-line SUCKS, for having, what, 3 1st round picks and a 3rd?? it's woeful.

Nail, meet hammer.

[Woodchuck]

Good analysis driving wheel. I agree about the talent problem. So many people think that a coach, gm, and qb will fix everything and all of our problems will magically go away. That really isn't the case. We are along way off imo. We are about to be rebuilding. Not as much as last time but, it's going to happen imo.

As for the offense. The offense you want to run is a longshot imo. You practically have to have a bad ass HOF QB to run it. Also, our o-line has already gotten two QBs killed this year. Imagine what it would be like if we ran 5 WR sets?

I am not against this type of offense but, it requires having a ton of talent on that side of the ball on the o-line, WR position, and especially the QB.

I think that is why it's so rare.

I think success will come the fastest if we keep things as simple as possible.