Post your top 5 rock bands of all time

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

So good that the Rockman and the 80's recording techniques evolved in his wake.

Thanks, Tom.

The Rockman has its place in rock music history. Hysteria wouldn't be the same if Def Leppard had used guitar amps instead of modified Rockman's. Neither would the Theme from Top Gun, in which Steve Stevens used a Rockman.

It's all over 80's music and helped to make the 80's sound as they do.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The Rockman has its place in rock music history. Hysteria wouldn't be the same if Def Leppard had used guitar amps instead of modified Rockman's. Neither would the Theme from Top Gun, in which Steve Stevens used a Rockman.

It's all over 80's music and helped to make the 80's sound as they do.

That's exactly my point, sir.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

That's exactly my point, sir.

The Rockman, like any other musical invention, inspires. The sound inspired a generation of producers, artists and musicians to something that had never existed before.

Just like drum machines, digital keyboards, the Synclavier, Sony DASH machines and the first 48 channel SSL consoles, the Rockman opened up a new gateway to creativity in the 1980's.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The Rockman, like any other musical invention, inspires. The sound inspired a generation of producers, artists and musicians to something that had never existed before.

Just like drum machines, digital keyboards, the Synclavier, Sony DASH machines and the first 48 channel SSL consoles, the Rockman opened up a new gateway to creativity in the 1980's.

Not a big fan of the little, squashed compression sound. It's lifeless; even in the hands of the best players, it really seems sterile. Part of the way an instrument sounds is dependent on the room it's played in. Take away the room, and it takes away from the overall sound and ambiance.

Like, to me, Hysteria wouldn't sound as dated if they had broken out the Marshalls and cranked it up. Of course, that's not Mutt Lange's style - the only band he did that with was AC/DC (no accident that those are the Best records of his career).

That's why I don't like Foreigner - I LOVE Mick Jones and Ian McDonald; can't stand the records, the sterility of them. rock and roll is an inherently imperfect art form - it should never BE perfect; that 'perfection' washes away the very mojo that makes it beautiful, ya know?? It's like, we got away from that BS in the 90's and now it's cycled back, only now everything is through cakewalk/protools plugins and bands 'run tracks' live.

So you KNOW what I'm talking about, and WHY I don't like that music. I'm not being a dick; it's a tanglible thing. All those songs are ran through the same box, and plugged right into the board. That's why they literally all sound the same, exactly.

Amplifiers hum, that's how rock and roll sounds when you turn it up, ya know?? and the same amp with the same guitar on the same settings in the same room will sound different from day-to-day, just because the air is different, and then any recording you make will be different...it results in a different snapshot of that day.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

Not a big fan of the little, squashed compression sound. It's lifeless; even in the hands of the best players, it really seems sterile.

At the time, the Rockman was revolutionary. People could play guitar without an amp, whether it was plugging into a live console, an SSL or a pair of headphones. The sound of the Rockman inspired musicians, composers and producers to create music that had previously not existed.

And Hysteria is one of the most respected albums ever made to this day. Its sound is extremely unique. The production values are amazing. While that sound isn't for every artist and every band, it works for those songs and that band.

That's all that matters.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

Part of the way an instrument sounds is dependent on the room it's played in. Take away the room, and it takes away from the overall sound and ambiance.

That's really not true. An overwhelming number of albums have been recorded with amps recorded in amp closets or surrounded by Gobo's to deaden the room sound. In the 70's, guys taped terry cloth towels to their drum heads to deaden them, an enormous number of bass guitar tracks were recorded direct into the console and not through an amp and guitars have been recorded direct forever.

Listen to most 70's rock records and you're hearing damped drums, DI'd bass and guitar amps covered with Gobo's and in some cases, blankets.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

Like, to me, Hysteria wouldn't sound as dated if they had broken out the Marshalls and cranked it up. Of course, that's not Mutt Lange's style - the only band he did that with was AC/DC (no accident that those are the Best records of his career).

It's not "dated" at all. It was innovative. If he had recorded Hysteria with Marshalls, live drums, etc. instead of Rockman's, Linn and Oberheim drum machines while recording each vocal take into a Synclavier, I seriously doubt that the record would have long standing impact today.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

That's why I don't like Foreigner - I LOVE Mick Jones and Ian McDonald; can't stand the records, the sterility of them. rock and roll is an inherently imperfect art form - it should never BE perfect; that 'perfection' washes away the very mojo that makes it beautiful, ya know??

I disagree. That's like saying that orchestral musicians should not play their instruments perfectly, that it somehow takes away from the music or the art to use world class musicians for film scores and orchestral and chamber music.

There's a difference between a "raw" performance and imperfection. Imperfection occurs when the players aren't top notch or world class. I can guarantee you that you're not walking into a session, whether it be a 70's police show or The Family Guy if you're not a world class musician that's incapable of making mistakes.

Capturing the rawness of a band is completely different, although that was as rare in 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's as it is today.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

It's like, we got away from that BS in the 90's and now it's cycled back, only now everything is through cakewalk/protools plugins and bands 'run tracks' live.

At the end of the day, the job is to entertain the audience. That's all that matters.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

So you KNOW what I'm talking about, and WHY I don't like that music. I'm not being a dick; it's a tanglible thing. All those songs are ran through the same box, and plugged right into the board. That's why they literally all sound the same, exactly.

You don't have to like it. But you should appreciate the effort and appreciate the beauty of what they accomplished as a band and what Mutt Lange accomplished as a producer.

Much like what Terry Manning achieved with Eliminator, it's a very unique sound and unique record.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

Amplifiers hum, that's how rock and roll sounds when you turn it up, ya know?? and the same amp with the same guitar on the same settings in the same room will sound different from day-to-day, just because the air is different, and then any recording you make will be different...it results in a different snapshot of that day.

Well, I have to disagree with this. If you have properly maintained guitars and amps, there shouldn't be any variance in recorded sound from day to day. That's the job of the amp and guitar tech and if it doesn't happen, they're fired.

If you want different sounds every day, have 20 or more guitars, basses, amps and drums on hand.

[rabblerouser]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

At the time, the Rockman was revolutionary. People could play guitar without an amp, whether it was plugging into a live console, an SSL or a pair of headphones. The sound of the Rockman inspired musicians, composers and producers to create music that had previously not existed.

I know...they were pretty hot.

Aerosmith's Done With Mirrors is an example of a great album 'Ruined By Rockman'

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

And Hysteria is one of the most respected albums ever made to this day. It's sound is extremely unique. The production values are amazing. While that sound isn't for every artist and every band, it works for those songs and that band.

Sure - and the Rick Allen situation lent itself even further to that recording method and it contributed to that record's overall sound and ambiance, which is way different from the first two, or even the one Mutt did before.

Not dogging it - I just prefer the sound and the playing of the first three albums over Hysteria or anything after. I know Phil Collen is a great guitarist, but without a whole bunch of Steve Clark, the thing falls flat to me. Maybe it's no coincidence that I think the best song on Hysteria is 'Armageddon It.'

maybe, indeed...

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

That's really not true. An overwhelming number of albums have been recorded with amps recorded in amp closets or surrounded by Gogo's to deaden the room sound. In the 70's, guys taped terry cloth towels to their drum heads to deaden them, an enormous number of bass guitar tracks were recorded direct into the console and not through an amp and guitars have been recorded direct forever.

Listen to most 70's rock records and you're hearing damped drums, DI'd bass and guitar amps covered with Gobo's and in some cases, blankets.

Hey, I dig that - everyone did what needed to be done to get it done. That resulted in a lot of different sounds, awesome records.

Take Fleetwood Mac for instance - I love Rumours, Tusk, Mirage, etc. And those records are overdub city.

We're making a record right now, and I have 3 or 4 bass signals at a time and one of them is a direct through a preamp in case we wind up using a plug-in during the mixing stage...I'm just trying NOT to.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

It's "dated" at all. It was innvotavite. If he had recorded Hysteria with Marshalls, live drums, etc. instead of Rockman's, Linn and Oberheim drum machines while recording each vocal take into a Synclavier, I seriously doubt that the record would have long standing impact today.

well, they couldn't use live drums, not completely. And yes, agreed, though Hysteria was probably a bad example to use.

A better one would be 'Dirty White Boy' by Foreigner - LOVE the song. Could have a ballsier guitar. The sheen washes away the ballsiness. I guess that's why I always dig the Stones; even on their poppiest dance numbers, ballads, whatever - guitar is loud and clear, front and center.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I disagree. That's like saying that orchestral musicians should play their instruments perfectly, that it somehow takes away from the music or the art to use world class musicians for film scores and orchestral and chamber music.

There's a difference between a "raw" performance and imperfection. Imperfection occurs when the players aren't top notch or world class. I can guarantee you that you're not walking into a session, whether it be a 70's police show or The Family Guy if you're not a world class musician that's incapable of making mistakes.

Capturing the rawness of a band is completely different, although that was as rare in 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's as it is today.

At the end of the day, the job is to entertain the audience. That's all that matter.

Well, you can't suck. That's a given...

But it seems that no one is interested in capturing the 'rawness' of a band anymore. It's disheartening.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You don't have to like it. But you should appreciate the effort and appreciate the beauty of what they accomplished as a band and what Mutt Lange accomplished as a producer.

Much like what Terry Manning achieved with Eliminator, it's a very unique sound and unique record.

I love Eliminator. I can appreciate what Mutt has done...but I hear the symmetry of the 'Mutt Lange Sound' through every artist he's worked with (including Shania) sans AC/DC. And to me, a producer needs to bring out what their artists sound like (Brenden O'Brien) and not impart their sound on their artist (Caveman Shirley).

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Well, I have to disagree with this. If you have properly maintained guitars and amps, there shouldn't be any variance in recorded sound from day to day. That's the job of the amp and guitar tech and if it doesn't happen, they're fired.

It will sound slightly different every time no matter what. A lot of ears can't even tell the difference from day to day, but it's there. It's a natural byproduct of analog gear and acoustical physics.

The producer knows and can hear...that's a big reasons why even rock producers went to Rockmans and triggered drums...and why they do plug-ins and triggered drums now. Control, absolute control.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

If you want different sounds every day, have 20 or more guitars, basses, amps and drums on hand.

We got that covered, too.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

We're making a record right now, and I have 3 or 4 bass signals at a time and one of them is a direct through a preamp in case we wind up using a plug-in during the mixing stage...I'm just trying NOT to.

And personally, I hate that approach.

Get a great bass tone from the amp, cabinet, microphone, instrument, strings, pick/fingers and record.

Make a decision and go with it. Having options doesn't make the music any better and it generally tends to **** things up come mixing time.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

The producer knows and can hear...that's a big reasons why even rock producers went to Rockmans and triggered drums

No, not really. Not at all, actually.

The Rockman was a new creative tool and it sounded unlike any other guitar amp or guitar recording chain. Same with drum machines. There was an isolation that had never existed before and new sound.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

...and why they do plug-ins and triggered drums now. Control, absolute control.

Again, that's not true at all.

Drum samples came into play for various reasons. A guy like CLA uses them because it defines his sound. Bob Clearmountain used them and shared his library with others because it defined his sound.

Producers don't generally use drum samples unless they ****ed something up while tracking and that usually isn't the case. Mixers like to supplement recorded drums with samples to fit their vision, although it's not unlikely that the drums are replaced in their entirety.

Originally Posted by Driving Wheel

It will sound slightly different every time no matter what. A lot of ears can't even tell the difference from day to day, but it's there. It's a natural byproduct of analog gear and acoustical physics.

I just don't agree, whatsoever. If you're using high end gear like Neve, SSL, API, Drawmer, Empirical Labs, Vintech, etc. and so on and the gear is properly maintained in a clean, temperature controlled room, there is absolutely no reason why anything should sound different from day to day.