Game of Thrones *Spoiler* Thread

[keg in kc]

There's been some recent confusion with the old spoiler thread, so I'm kicking off a new one for tonight's premiere. This is going to be the one for folks who've read all the books. So anything anybody might want to talk about is in bounds. Suffice to say, if you haven't read the books, you'll probably want to stay out of here until you do...

I'll bump the old spoiler-free thread shortly in case anybody's interested. For future reference the link to that one is here

[Third Eye]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Sure, same as Tyrion.

To the contrary, Stannis is being vilified in the show.

I don't understand either of these opinions. Tyrion is even more sympathetic in the books than the show, and I don't see Stannis being vilified at all. Both the books and the show paint Stannis as a disagreeable and hard fellow willing to do whatever it takes to take the crown because it belongs to him legitimately.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

I don't understand either of these opinions. Tyrion is even more sympathetic in the books than the show, and I don't see Stannis being vilified at all. Both the books and the show paint Stannis as a disagreeable and hard fellow willing to do whatever it takes to take the crown because it belongs to him legitimately.

In the books, Tyrion murders a defenseless Shae, they felt the need to give her a knife in the show. In the books, he also has Symon killed.

In the books, Stannis leads an enormously outnumbered army to the north to defend the realm because it's his duty, captures Mance while Mance is threatening to literally destroy the wall (saving the day), and then is sought out by the iron bank.

In the show, he goes to Braavos to beg for money, then apparently leads a huge army against Mance, interrupting peace talks, and Mance ends up surrendering to save the lives of more people. The changes essentially turn Mance into the hero rather than Stannis.

Perhaps vilified is too strong of a word, but Stannis is definitely given the opposite treatment that Cersei and Tyrion get.

[Setsuna]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

In the books, Tyrion murders a defenseless Shae, they felt the need to give her a knife in the show. In the books, he also has Symon killed.

In the books, Stannis leads an enormously outnumbered army to the north to defend the realm because it's his duty, captures Mance while Mance is threatening to literally destroy the wall (saving the day), and then is sought out by the iron bank.

In the show, he goes to Braavos to beg for money, then apparently leads a huge army against Mance, interrupting peace talks, and Mance ends up surrendering to save the lives of more people. The changes essentially turn Mance into the hero rather than Stannis.

Perhaps vilified is too strong of a word, but Stannis is definitely given the opposite treatment that Cersei and Tyrion get.

Thank you. And then he rapes Illyrio's whore and thinks about raping and killing Cersei as well. Also Tyrion and Jaime leave off on horrible terms when he tell him about Tysha and he tells Jaime about Cersei and her having sex with everyone. Lest we forget.

[Hawk]

The biggest difference has to be Cersei. The show has made her much more sympathetic than the books. I mean she's still an evil bitch on the show, but not to the same level as the books.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Setsuna

Thank you. And then he rapes Illyrio's whore and thinks about raping and killing Cersei as well. Also Tyrion and Jaime leave off on horrible terms when he tell him about Tysha and he tells Jaime about Cersei and her having sex with everyone. Lest we forget.

Yep. Tyrion's comments to Jaime are what sends him on his current path, forsaking Cersei. I imagine they'll substitute something else in.

I don't have a huge issue with how they're portraying Cersei, to me they are taking something that is subtly shown in the books (her love for her children) and shoving it down our throats. At least she isn't Renly or Loras.

The changes to Tyrion and Stannis bother me more, whitewashing a fan favorite by justifying or deleting every morally questionable thing he does makes the character less interesting. Similarly, nullifying every good thing that the prickly, unlikable character does makes him less interesting as well.

[Hammock Parties]

[BigRichard]

Originally Posted by Count Zarth

If I had my choice of any woman on GoT it would probably be her. My second choice might be the lady that plays Melisindra(sp?)

[duncan_idaho]

Here's a fairly interesting article about parallels between historical figures and GoT figures.

However, it is far, far off the mark regarding Lyanna Stark. That did make me LOL.

[Setsuna]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Yep. Tyrion's comments to Jaime are what sends him on his current path, forsaking Cersei. I imagine they'll substitute something else in.

I don't have a huge issue with how they're portraying Cersei, to me they are taking something that is subtly shown in the books (her love for her children) and shoving it down our throats. At least she isn't Renly or Loras.

The changes to Tyrion and Stannis bother me more, whitewashing a fan favorite by justifying or deleting every morally questionable thing he does makes the character less interesting. Similarly, nullifying every good thing that the prickly, unlikable character does makes him less interesting as well.

Exactly. Stannis is in his own, painful way, just. The only unjust things he does has to do with Mel whereas otherwise he wouldn't think to do so.

Fun fact: The actress playing Arya is 17. How the f?

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

So will HBO start to change it up since the 4th and 5th books weren't as well received by fans? How much can I look forward to the next season?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Rudy lost the toss

So will HBO start to change it up since the 4th and 5th books weren't as well received by fans? How much can I look forward to the next season?

This season had some of book 4 in it. Maybe book 5 also. Books 4 and 5 have a lot of overlap. There are websites that have been put together to tell people to read chapter 1 in book 4 then chapter 3 in book 5, then chapter 2 and 3 in book book 4, then chapter 1 in book 5 etc.

There is some of book 3 left that the TV series didn't cover this year. No way they skip these missed parts,

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

This season had some of book 4 in it. Maybe book 5 also. Books 4 and 5 have a lot of overlap. There are websites that have been put together to tell people to read chapter 1 in book 4 then chapter 3 in book 5, then chapter 2 and 3 in book book 4, then chapter 1 in book 5 etc.

There is some of book 3 left that the TV series didn't cover this year. No way they skip these missed parts,

Ah ok. Good info. Thanks

[Hawk]

Between books 4 and 5 together, I think there is plenty to get them through next season. But they won't really stretch much beyond that, so he'd better hurry with book 6.

Books 4 and 5 weren't as well received as book 3, but they were still excellent. It's just that book 3 was as good a book as I've ever read, so the next two just didn't quite measure up to that lofty standard. Book 3 was action packed with great twists and surprises and tons of significant events. It had a lot of fun payoffs. They have done two full seasons of the show off that one book now, and there are still a couple of events they held for next season. That's pretty amazing if you think about it.

Books 4 and 5 were not as action packed throughout, so they suffer by comparison. On the other hand, they contain a lot of great hidden details and spawned a lot of theories and discussions. Besides, the show won't suffer from the main problem with books 4 and 5, and that was the weird structure of them.

Book 4 came out five years after book 3, but it did not pick up all the story lines, there were no chapters for Tyrion, Jon and Dany in the entire book for example. People who waited so long to get it were highly bummed to find this out, so that really hurt its reception. Then 5 more years later (10 years after book 3 came out) he finally released book 5 that continued those story lines from the end of book 3. So the first 2/3 of book 5 takes place at the same time as book 4, but just covers different characters. They all come back in by the end of book 5.

That's why it's better to read those books together as one giant book using one of the chapter lists on the internet. It helps the timeline make more sense and you get all the characters at once that way. And of course that is what the show will do and has already started doing this season with some material from both books 4 and 5 already being included. If GRRM had done them that way, they'd have been better received.

In the end, books 4 and 5 are set up books. He ended book 5 right before some very big payoffs. That also hurt the reception of book 5, but on the other hand, given where the story is at after all the set up in books 4 and 5, book 6 has a legit chance to be just as awesome as book 3 was! Write GRRM, write!!!

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Between books 4 and 5 together, I think there is plenty to get them through next season. But they won't really stretch much beyond that, so he'd better hurry with book 6.

Books 4 and 5 weren't as well received as book 3, but they were still excellent. It's just that book 3 was as good a book as I've ever read, so the next two just didn't quite measure up to that lofty standard. Book 3 was action packed with great twists and surprises and tons of significant events. It had a lot of fun payoffs. They have done two full seasons of the show off that one book now, and there are still a couple of events they held for next season. That's pretty amazing if you think about it.

Books 4 and 5 were not as action packed throughout, so they suffer by comparison. On the other hand, they contain a lot of great hidden details and spawned a lot of theories and discussions. Besides, the show won't suffer from the main problem with books 4 and 5, and that was the weird structure of them.

Book 4 came out five years after book 3, but it did not pick up all the story lines, there were no chapters for Tyrion, Jon and Dany in the entire book for example. People who waited so long to get it were highly bummed to find this out, so that really hurt its reception. Then 5 more years later (10 years after book 3 came out) he finally released book 5 that continued those story lines from the end of book 3. So the first 2/3 of book 5 takes place at the same time as book 4, but just covers different characters. They all come back in by the end of book 5.

That's why it's better to read those books together as one giant book using one of the chapter lists on the internet. It helps the timeline make more sense and you get all the characters at once that way. And of course that is what the show will do and has already started doing this season with some material from both books 4 and 5 already being included. If GRRM had done them that way, they'd have been better received. But they are set up books, and he ended book 5 right before some very big payoffs. That hurt the reception of book 5. On the other hand, given where the story is at after all the set up in books 4 and 5, book 6 has a legit chance to be just as awesome as book 3 was.

Man I wish he would hurry up!

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Books 4 and 5 weren't as well received as book 3, but they were still excellent. It's just that book 3 was as good a book as I've ever read, so the next two just didn't quite measure up to that lofty standard. Book 3 was action packed with great twists and surprises and tons of significant events. It had a lot of fun payoffs. They have done two full seasons of the show off that one book now, and there are still a couple of events they held for next season. That's pretty amazing if you think about it
Books 4 and 5 were not as action packed throughout, so they suffer by comparison. On the other hand, they contain a lot of great hidden details and spawned a lot of theories and discussions. Besides, the show won't suffer from the main problem with books 4 and 5, and that was the weird structure of them.

TV audiences are not going to want to watch Danery's rule Mereen. Watch the Dorn ruling family make decisions. Watch an army drudge through the snow. And so on and so on. There seems to me a lot of books 4 and 5 that were great books but won't make great TV.

They have saved Lady Stoneheart, Jon Snow's possible death etc. I just don't see enough there for next year to stay in book 4 only.

Originally Posted by Hawk

That's why it's better to read those books together as one giant book using one of the chapter lists on the internet. It helps the timeline make more sense and you get all the characters at once that way.

I was going to do that but got talked out of it by the veteran book readers here.

Originally Posted by Hawk

book 6 has a legit chance to be just as awesome as book 3 was! Write GRRM, write!!!

Agreed. Book 6 is primed to be as good as book 3.