****The Official 2019 STL Cardinals Thread****

[BigRedChief]

Cardinals announce 25-man Opening Day roster for the 2019 season.

Spoiler!

The Cardinals today announced their 25-man Opening Day roster that includes four first-time Cardinals and 13 players that were developed within their organization.

PITCHERS (12): 60 – John Brebbia-RHP, 22 – Jack Flaherty-RHP, 53 – John Gant- RHP, 49 – Jordan Hicks-RHP, 43 – Dakota Hudson- RHP, 55 – Dominic Leone-RHP, 59 – Mike Mayers- RHP, 21 – Andrew Miller-LHP, 39 – Miles Mikolas-RHP, 29 – Alex Reyes, RHP, 52 – Michael Wacha-RHP, 50 – Adam Wainwright- RHP;

CATCHERS (2): 4 -Yadier Molina, 32 – Matt Wieters;

INFIELDERS (6): 13 - Matt Carpenter, 12 – Paul DeJong, 46 – Paul Goldschmidt, 34 – Yario Muñoz, 33 – Drew Robinson, 16 – Kolten Wong;

OUTFIELDERS (5): 46 – Harrison Bader, 25 - Dexter Fowler, 38 – José Martínez, 41 – Tyler O'Neill, 23 – Marcell Ozuna;

DISABLED LIST (5): 27 - Brett Cecil (10-day, left hand Carpal Tunnel syndrome), 44 – Luke Gregerson (10-day, right shoulder impingement), 18 – Carlos Martínez (right shoulder cuff strain), 3 - Jedd Gyorko (10-day, right calf strain), 67 - Justin Williams (10-day, right hand 2nd metacarpal fracture).

2019 Opening Day Line up

Spoiler!

Starting lineup
Matt Carpenter 3B
Paul Goldschmidt 1B
Paul DeJong SS
Ozuna LF
Yadier Molina C
Dexter Fowler RF
Kolten Wong 2B
Harrison Bader CF

Won the Central Division. Won the NLDS.

NLDS Playoff roster

Spoiler!

Pitchers (12): Miles Mikolas, Jack Flaherty, Adam Wainwright, Dakota Hudson, Genesis Cabrera, Tyler Webb, Andrew Miller, John Brebbia, Daniel Ponce de Leon, Ryan Helsley, Giovanny Gallegos, Carlos Martinez.

Catchers (2): Yadier Molina, Matt Wieters.

Infielders (6): Paul Goldschmidt, Kolten Wong, Paul DeJong, Matt Carpenter, Tommy Edman, Yairo Munoz.

Outfielders (5): Marcell Ozuna, Harrison Bader, Dexter Fowler, Jose Martinez, Randy Arozarena.

NLDS Playoff Game 1 starting lineup

Spoiler!

1. Dexter Fowler, CF

2. Tommy Edman, 3B

3. Paul Goldschmidt, 1B

4. Marcell Ozuna, LF

5. Yadier Molina, C

6. Paul DeJong, SS

7. Kolten Wong, 2B

8. Harrison Bader, CF

9. Miles Mikolas, P

NLCS Game One Starting lineup

Spoiler!

1. Dexter Fowler, CF

2. Kolten Wong, 2B

3. Paul Goldschmidt, 1B

4. Marcell Ozuna, LF

5. Yadier Molina, C

6. Matt Carpenter 3B

7.Tommy Edmond RF

8. Paul DeJong, SS

9. Miles Mikolas P

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Cardinals couldn't have justified it, to be honest.

To match the Astros package, they'd have had to give up something like Gorman, Woodford and Fernandez. And they'd have had to take on $100 million in salary.

The Cardinals can excuse doing one of the above but not both. Not with their system being as ungodly mediocre as it is and the team not really being championship caliber anyway, even with Greinke.

The Astros can make that move because they're loaded at the major league level AND have a farm system that is both deeper and has a higher end than ours.

Maybe someone in the organization needs to hack into the Astros computers to see him they handle their system.......

[DJ's left nut]

Here's a fun/embarrassing exercise I undertook on my Cardinals board.

How much better are the Astros than the Cardinals? If you went down their roster, let's just say alphabetically, and culled every other player and replaced him with someone they had in AAA - would the Astros STILL be better than STL?

It's a close call. Here are their respective 'halved' rosters - sorted alphabetically and then split every other player down the middle - that you'd then need to supplement:

Team 1:

IF: Altuve, Correa, Gurriel, Diaz, Chirinos
OF: Brantley, Marisnick
SP: Verlander, McHugh, James, Sneed
BP: Osuna, Pressly, Rondon
Bn: Straw

Team 2:

IF: Alvarez, Bregman, Maldonado
OF: Reddick, Springer
SP: Cole, Greinke, Miley
BP: Devenski, Harris, Peacock, Smith, Urquidy

Team 1 is better than STL's, no question. Add Tucker to the starting lineup in CF, Whitley to the rotation, Fisher to the bench, guys like Garza, McCurry, Bielak and Emanuel to the bullpen. That teams better than the Cardinals; bench is poor because a lot of their offensive prospects are in the low minors now. That's the only weakness they'd have since I, y'know, blinked half their !@#$ing team out of existence and all.

Team 2 is closer b/c that IF is pretty lousy. Bregman at SS and Alvarez at 1b is a heck of a start but there's really nothing left for them at 2b and 3b. Fortunately they have a GM that isn't reeruned so they'd probably shop that extra relief arm to Team 1 to try to bring Straw over, who'd look awfully nice at 2b for them. As it stands you're looking at Jack Mayfield. 3b is probably Nick Tanielu but Mayfield has an OPS of .940 in AAA and Tanielu at .790 so these guys (organizational depth for them) aren't scrubs. Throw in Jones and Ferguson w/ OPS north of .900 and .860 respectively off the bench and yeah, you're probably doing okay (could obviously fit those same guys on the bench in team 1 as well).

I mean if you sat down and intentionally tried to build 2 teams that could be made better than the Cardinals by actually picking and choosing, it would be child's play. This was a completely random attempt and created at least 1 team that's better than STL and very probably both of them due to the strength of Team 2's pitching staff.

Now I couldn't make 2 squads if I could only use each minor leaguer once. But if I split the 25 man down the middle and let them share their minor league depth, I think both teams are better than the Cardinals.

Folks, that's just funny right there.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Here's a fun/embarrassing exercise I undertook on my Cardinals board.

How much better are the Astros than the Cardinals? If you went down their roster, let's just say alphabetically, and culled every other player and replaced him with someone they had in AAA - would the Astros STILL be better than STL?

It's a close call. Here are their respective 'halved' rosters - sorted alphabetically and then split every other player down the middle - that you'd then need to supplement:

Team 1:

IF: Altuve, Correa, Gurriel, Diaz, Chirinos
OF: Brantley, Marisnick
SP: Verlander, McHugh, James, Sneed
BP: Osuna, Pressly, Rondon
Bn: Straw

Team 2:

IF: Alvarez, Bregman, Maldonado
OF: Reddick, Springer
SP: Cole, Greinke, Miley
BP: Devenski, Harris, Peacock, Smith, Urquidy

Team 1 is better than STL's, no question. Add Tucker to the starting lineup in CF, Whitley to the rotation, Fisher to the bench, guys like Garza, McCurry, Bielak and Emanuel to the bullpen. That teams better than the Cardinals; bench is poor because a lot of their offensive prospects are in the low minors now. That's the only weakness they'd have since I, y'know, blinked half their !@#$ing team out of existence and all.

Team 2 is closer b/c that IF is pretty lousy. Bregman at SS and Alvarez at 1b is a heck of a start but there's really nothing left for them at 2b and 3b. Fortunately they have a GM that isn't reeruned so they'd probably shop that extra relief arm to Team 1 to try to bring Straw over, who'd look awfully nice at 2b for them. As it stands you're looking at Jack Mayfield. 3b is probably Nick Tanielu but Mayfield has an OPS of .940 in AAA and Tanielu at .790 so these guys (organizational depth for them) aren't scrubs. Throw in Jones and Ferguson w/ OPS north of .900 and .860 respectively off the bench and yeah, you're probably doing okay (could obviously fit those same guys on the bench in team 1 as well).

I mean if you sat down and intentionally tried to build 2 teams that could be made better than the Cardinals by actually picking and choosing, it would be child's play. This was a completely random attempt and created at least 1 team that's better than STL and very probably both of them due to the strength of Team 2's pitching staff.

Now I couldn't make 2 squads if I could only use each minor leaguer once. But if I split the 25 man down the middle and let them share their minor league depth, I think both teams are better than the Cardinals.

Folks, that's just funny right there.

just stop it’s depressing. This is all on Dewitt now. He doesn’t fire Mo, it’s all about money. Mo is making him brinks trucks full of money. That’s what I value.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

just stop it’s depressing. This is all on Dewitt now. He doesn’t fire Mo, it’s all about money. Mo is making him brinks trucks full of money. That’s what I value.

What was that show on HBO where half the world disappeared and nobody knew why?

Or better still, Thanos. What if Thanos is a Cardinals fan? Does the snap, lets the Cards keep their roster. Oh sure, the Cardinals would finally figure out a way to beat the Cubs, but I'm still not convinced they'd take down the Dodgers to even get the chance to lose to half the Astros organization.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

What was that show on HBO where half the world disappeared and nobody knew why?

Or better still, Thanos. What if Thanos is a Cardinals fan? Does the snap, lets the Cards keep their roster. Oh sure, the Cardinals would finally figure out a way to beat the Cubs, but I'm still not convinced they'd take down the Dodgers to even get the chance to lose to half the Astros organization.

because the Astros picked in top 11 for 7/9 years. Multiple top 5 picks including 2 #1’s that everyone agreed was far and away a better player than the rest doesn’t mean Ludhow is a lucky GM. But..... we kept the wrong one. we haven’t had a lineup to rival or even get close to the current Astros lineup since those
Walker/Beltran/Berkman/Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds etc. lineups.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

because the Astros picked in top 11 for 7/9 years. Multiple top 5 picks including 2 #1’s that everyone agreed was far and away a better player than the rest doesn’t mean Ludhow is a lucky GM. But..... we kept the wrong one. we haven’t had a lineup to rival or even get close to the current Astros lineup since those
Walker/Beltran/Berkman/Pujols/Rolen/Edmonds etc. lineups.

The Astros have an amazing developmental system. They take D+ guys and turn them into B+ guys.

If it was just about tanking then the Reds or Marlins would have done it, too.


https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/6...great-scouting

"As a result, the Astros are dominating the minors even more than the majors. In 2018, four years removed from the franchise’s last no. 1 pick, Astros pitchers led their league in strikeout rate at six successive levels, from MLB down to short-season A-ball. (At the seventh level, Rookie ball, their rank sank all the way to second.) Weighted by playing time, the average age of those minor-league pitchers above Rookie ball, 22.9, was the lowest of any AL organization. Astros hitters above Rookie ball, meanwhile, were second in walk-to-strikeout ratio and—despite not playing in any notably offense-friendly parks—fourth in home-run rate. And as for wins—well, Astros minor-league teams led all organizations in combined winning percentage above Rookie ball (.585), short-season A-ball (.587), full-season A-ball (.589), and High-A (.592).

The way they did that is telling, too. According to TrackMan data, Astros hitters led the minors in pull percentage and the percentage of balls hit in the air. Despite that power-centric approach, they chased balls at the third-lowest rate and maintained an above-average contact rate. On the pitching side, Astros minor leaguers led all teams in fastball velocity, breaking-ball spin rate, off-speed-pitch percentage, percentage of four-seam fastballs thrown in the upper third of the zone, and whiffs per swing. Name a data-driven developmental trend in today’s game, and the Astros aren’t just at or near the forefront of it at the big-league level, but they’re also grooming the current roster’s replacements from Triple-A down to the Dominican Summer League."


Read that article. It's an absolute indictment of the Cadinals' approach since he left, and it demonstrates who the real mover was in the organization when Luhnow was here.

[BigRedChief]

Jon Lester after Jack Flaherty and the Cardinals combined for a one-hitter in an 8-0 shutout: “He pretty much shoved it right up our asses.”

— Patrick Mooney (@PJ_Mooney) August 2, 2019

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Jon Lester after Jack Flaherty and the Cardinals combined for a one-hitter in an 8-0 shutout: “He pretty much shoved it right up our asses.”

— Patrick Mooney (@PJ_Mooney) August 2, 2019

Could say that about any pitcher the Cubs face on the road. This team is garbage on the road.

This is like 2018 all over again when the offense disappeared for the 2nd half of the season. Even their 1 win in this series was dogshit. The first 2 games were a competition of which team wanted to lose more than the other.

If this is what its like for the next 2 months, and there's no reason to believe it wont be because its been like this all season outside of 1 good run after the first sweep of the Cardinals, then I wont at all be surprised if someone like Baez is traded to retool the lineup and bring in more contact.

[bdj23]

Originally Posted by jd1020

Could say that about any pitcher the Cubs face on the road. This team is garbage on the road.

This is like 2018 all over again when the offense disappeared for the 2nd half of the season. Even their 1 win in this series was dogshit. The first 2 games were a competition of which team wanted to lose more than the other.

If this is what its like for the next 2 months, and there's no reason to believe it wont be because its been like this all season outside of 1 good run after the first sweep of the Cardinals, then I wont at all be surprised if someone like Baez is traded to retool the lineup and bring in more contact.

So much for that dynasty, eh?

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by BDj23

So much for that dynasty, eh?

What's funny is that I'm pretty sure I've never used that word. The Cubs are still far and away the most talented team in the central, but the Dodgers have clearly been the class of the NL since 2017.

The dumbass Jose Quintana trade pretty much crippled the Cubs potential to make significant moves so they are pretty much left with having to trade one of the core 4.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by jd1020

What's funny is that I'm pretty sure I've never used that word. The Cubs are still far and away the most talented team in the central, but the Dodgers have clearly been the class of the NL since 2017.

The dumbass Jose Quintana trade pretty much crippled the Cubs potential to make significant moves so they are pretty much left with having to trade one of the core 4.

Far and away my ass. You dont need to look any farther than the last 2 seasons records and compare them to the rest of the division. We arent talking some small sample size.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Far and away my ass. You dont need to look any farther than the last 2 seasons records and compare them to the rest of the division. We arent talking some small sample size.

If you think theres any team in the central that has as much talent as the Cubs you are lying to yourself. They are simply flawed because theres too much swing and miss in the lineup which is getting exposed because Zobrist decided he was just going to quit on the team for damn near the whole season because of a divorce.

The role players on this team are cut from the same cloth as the stars so while they Cubs can field a lineup that has 4 or 5 guys with a .850 OPS+ the guys that are supposed to set the table dont do it often enough and same thing with the guys that should be playing station to station. Why the **** guys like Ian Happ are still on this roster is beyond me.

It also doesn't help that Maddon is a ****ing circus act that juggles everything for no apparent reason other than to demonstrate his brilliance. One day someones playing 3rd, the next they are playing RF, the next they are playing LF, and just for fun maybe we'll stick them in CF. About the only players that know where they are going to play are Rizzo and Baez and even then who knows where the **** they are going to hit in the lineup. One day they'll be asked to drive in runs from the middle of the lineup and the next day they'll be asked to change their approach and leadoff. And oh by the way if you are on fire and just had a 4 hit game with 2 home runs and 5 RBI's treat yourself to a day off because you havent had one in 4 games. Even the players have hinted at their displeasure with the constant juggling and not know what they are going to be asked to do from one day to the next but brush it off as "that's just Joe being Joe." His constant juggling and the fact that he can't manage a bullpen even if it was scripted perfectly for him is likely a big reason why just 3 years ago he won a WS and today he's a lame duck. Sure he can get a lot out of players by simply making the locker room a fun environment but he's an absolute clown when it comes to managing a game.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by jd1020

If you think theres any team in the central that has as much talent as the Cubs you are lying to yourself. They are simply flawed because theres too much swing and miss in the lineup which is getting exposed because Zobrist decided he was just going to quit on the team for damn near the whole season because of a divorce.

The role players on this team are cut from the same cloth as the stars so while they Cubs can field a lineup that has 4 or 5 guys with a .850 OPS+ the guys that are supposed to set the table dont do it often enough and same thing with the guys that should be playing station to station. Why the **** guys like Ian Happ are still on this roster is beyond me.

It also doesn't help that Maddon is a ****ing circus act that juggles everything for no apparent reason other than to demonstrate his brilliance. One day someones playing 3rd, the next they are playing RF, the next they are playing LF, and just for fun maybe we'll stick them in CF. About the only players that know where they are going to play are Rizzo and Baez and even then who knows where the **** they are going to hit in the lineup. One day they'll be asked to drive in runs from the middle of the lineup and the next day they'll be asked to change their approach and leadoff. And oh by the way if you are on fire and just had a 4 hit game with 2 home runs and 5 RBI's treat yourself to a day off because you havent had one in 4 games. Even the players have hinted at their displeasure with the constant juggling and not know what they are going to be asked to do from one day to the next but brush it off as "that's just Joe being Joe." His constant juggling and the fact that he can't manage a bullpen even if it was scripted perfectly for him is likely a big reason why just 3 years ago he won a WS and today he's a lame duck. Sure he can get a lot out of players by simply making the locker room a fun environment but he's an absolute clown when it comes to managing a game.

I didn't say the Cubs didn't have the most overall talent but its not "far and way" better it is "marginally better" talent and their record proves this.

And you aren't making a good argument for your team being "far and away" more talented your argument tells me they aren't.

I mean shit by your standards the Cardinals are way more talented than their record, the issue is Carp, Goldy, DeJonge, Fowler, Molina, J Martinez, Wong, Micholas, C Martinez, Flaherty etc....just aren't playing up to their expectations.

[jd1020]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

I didn't say the Cubs didn't have the most overall talent but its not "far and way" better it is "marginally better" talent and their record proves this.

And you aren't making a good argument for your team being "far and away" more talented your argument tells me they aren't.

I mean shit by your standards the Cardinals are way more talented than their record, the issue is Carp, Goldy, DeJonge, Fowler, Molina, J Martinez, Wong, Micholas, C Martinez, Flaherty etc....just aren't playing up to their expectations.

Not sure the Cardinals aren't playing up to their expectations. Maybe Goldy and C Martinez but the rest are either hitting the age wall, don't have enough time under their belt to know what to "expect," or are playing up to expectations like Fowler and Wong.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by jd1020

It also doesn't help that Maddon is a ****ing circus act that juggles everything for no apparent reason other than to demonstrate his brilliance. One day someones playing 3rd, the next they are playing RF, the next they are playing LF, and just for fun maybe we'll stick them in CF. About the only players that know where they are going to play are Rizzo and Baez and even then who knows where the **** they are going to hit in the lineup. One day they'll be asked to drive in runs from the middle of the lineup and the next day they'll be asked to change their approach and leadoff. And oh by the way if you are on fire and just had a 4 hit game with 2 home runs and 5 RBI's treat yourself to a day off because you haven't had one in 4 games. Even the players have hinted at their displeasure with the constant juggling and not know what they are going to be asked to do from one day to the next but brush it off as "that's just Joe being Joe." His constant juggling and the fact that he can't manage a bullpen even if it was scripted perfectly for him is likely a big reason why just 3 years ago he won a WS and today he's a lame duck. Sure he can get a lot out of players by simply making the locker room a fun environment but he's an absolute clown when it comes to managing a game.

I live about 5 minutes from the Rays stadium. I wanted Maddon when Larussa left. Everyone down here thought he was a genius. Matheny coasted on Larussas players until he had to fly on his own and crashed the plane into a mountain. Still not recovered.

I'm hopeful about Schildt. I dont like his everything is rosey comments to the media but on the field, the defense and base running is better with essentially the same players. His bullpen management is light years ahead of Matheny. He pulled Flaherty in his last game before Flaherty could get a win because like all of the rest of us could see, he had lost it. Leave him in, the game gets out of hand. We won the game and Flaherty comes back the next game and 1 hits the Cubs over 7 innings.

Our issue with being mediocre doesnt appear to be a manager issue. He might be a keeper.