Any fishkeepers here? Saltwater or freshwater

[Silock]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

That's a start! You will need a pretty good light fixture to get your Dwarf Hairgrass to grow right. Depending on the size of the tank you get, a T5HO fixture should do the trick. The only problem is, if you go w/ a high wattage fixture like that, you would need to run a CO2 system or else you will have an algae bloom like you wouldn't believe!

Will algae be a problem even if the tank is completely out of sunlight and only gets light from the lights? I'm putting it in the basement outside of the theater room, and there aren't any windows down there.

If not, what kind of grass can I get to grow on the bottom of the tank that isn't too difficult? Is there such a thing? If there isn't, then I'll have to learn a CO2 system, I guess. It's the only way my wife will sign off on the freshwater vs. saltwater (because it's the only way the tank looks "pretty" to her).

Planted tanks are a lot of fun, but if you're new to the hobby, it would be best to start out w/ low and move up to high. This way you can get a routine going w/ dosing fertilizers, and adjusting your photoperiod, (how much light exposure your plants will get during the day).

What do you mean by this?

Mollies are Brackish fish and may or may not do well in a freshwater tank. I had 3 Gold Dust Mollies in mine, and they did "ok", but they require a certain amount of salt in the water to keep them healthy. I would just substitute Mollies w/ Swordtails if you're looking at getting a nice group of livebearers.

Noted.

As far as Discus, from what I hear, they can become aggressive and should be kept in a Discus only tank. The Cichlids in a community tank is a really bad idea. They are way too aggressive! Even if they don't technically "kill" any of your community fish, they could stress them out to the point where they could die.

Also noted. Liveaquaria says they're peaceful (Discus) and would get along, but I guess they're wrong.

If you're looking at a tank larger than 75 gallons, I would suggest going w/ a Canister filter. Otherwise, there are some really nice Hang-On-Back filters. Just make sure that you get a filter that will accommodate your tank size.

What's the quietest option?

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by Silock

What's the quietest option?

EHEIM! I had one of these

(well actually mine was close to this but a much much older one)
and it was quiet as hell. Probably overkill for you, but Eheim makes them in all different sizes... I highly recommend going BIG on your filter.

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by Silock

Will algae be a problem even if the tank is completely out of sunlight and only gets light from the lights? I'm putting it in the basement outside of the theater room, and there aren't any windows down there.

If not, what kind of grass can I get to grow on the bottom of the tank that isn't too difficult? Is there such a thing? If there isn't, then I'll have to learn a CO2 system, I guess. It's the only way my wife will sign off on the freshwater vs. saltwater (because it's the only way the tank looks "pretty" to her).



What do you mean by this?



Noted.



Also noted. Liveaquaria says they're peaceful (Discus) and would get along, but I guess they're wrong.



What's the quietest option?

Algae can be a problem in any tank even w/o direct sunlight. The amount of light from your fixture can create an algae bloom. That's why you should run CO2 if you have a light fixture that puts out a lot of wattage. CO2 kills off the algae. If the algae gets out of control, your plants will be competing to get the nutrients and such that the algae is taking in to grow.

As far as an low-light alternative to Dwarf Hairgrass, I don't believe there is one. However, you could always plant patches of Java Moss throughout the substrate. Eventually it will spread and form a nice "carpet" effect. I saw a tank that had Java Moss everywhere and it was beautiful!

"What do you mean by this?" I was meaning that it would be best to start out w/ a low light setup at first, then upgrade your lighting fixture to support high light plants. You will need to dose fertilizers in order for your plants to really take-off and stay green, (even w/ a low light setup). I use Seachem Flourish, Trace, and Root Tabs. The Flourish & Trace are good for the majority of plants that feed from the water column. The Root Tabs are good if you have standard gravel or sand substrate and deep rooting plants like Amazon Swords.

As far as my opinion about the Discus, I'm going by other people's personal experience with them in their community tanks. Liveaquaria is pretty accurate in their info, so they might be "ok" w/ community fish. But from the stories I've read, I wouldn't trust any of those bastards in my tank.

If you're looking for a quiet filter, the best option would be to read reviews on pet supply sites. Just see what others are saying about them. Of course, you may not have the same experience. I just replaced my old HOB filter and got a Tetra Whisper EX70 HOB Filter. Many of the reviewers complained about a grinding noise, but mine is extremely quiet. It's really hit or miss, especially w/ HOB filters. I've never used a Canister filter, but many people love them.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Silock

So, I've been perusing Craigslist. Seems like there are a ton of deals on 100+ gal tanks.

I want to do freshwater, though. I want Dwarf Hairgrass to cover the bottom. I love the way it looks when it's all over. So lush and green.

And then I'm going to just put a bunch of schools of peaceful, non-aggressive fish in there, like Neon Tetras, mollies, danios, killfish, a betta, discus, fancy guppies, gouramis, and swordtails. I've had cichlids before in the same tank with barbs, and they did okay. So, with such a large tank, I might be able to get away with one or two, but if I do, they'll come dead last.

What kind of filtration system should I go with? And heater? I've been reading that I should probably stay away from an undergravel filter because of the size of the tank.

Does that sound like a good plan?

Having live plants in your tank is much more difficult than it sounds. The conditions have to be very good, and many fish like to unroot the plants. But once you establish it in your tank, it really helps to maintain the bio aspect. It's certainly doable. But just expect some growing pains in getting it established.

Betas don't play with others very well at all.

Discus are one of the most difficult freshwater fish to keep. They're very sensitive to water quality, and usually require weekly water changes at the least. Plus they're pretty expensive, and they usually recommend having quite a few in the tank as they don't do well by themselves. I've had several friends try Discus, and they always ended up losing money and killing them. But damn they sure are beautiful fish.

No offense, but I don't really like your proposed mix of fish. They're all boring starter fish you'd find at any Petsmart. None of them will get very big, and few of them will have any "personality" that you'd see in bigger fish. They're dumb colony fish.

I think a cichlid tank is definitely the way to go. You can have a huge degree of variety that way. And it's really not as hard as you'd think to have a bunch of different cichlids in the tank without having an aggressive atmosphere. There's infinite different species of non aggressive cichlids that would look much better than your normal tetras, mollies, etc. I have a variety of different cichlids in my tank, and I have no aggression or fighting at all. I've got a large Jack Dempsey(6"), a large green severum, 2 African cichlids, a parrotfish, 2 Peacock cichlids, 2 plecos, and a couple Cory cats(hilarious little guys). And it's a very peaceful tank. All the fish have beautiful fins and rarely even chase each other in the tank. Don't be scared off by cichlids...

Take a look at some of the varieties of cichlids here: http://www.livefishdirect.com/store.php?cid=32

I have a friend who recently setup a tank with lots of Lake Malawi Mbuna cichlids, and man is it an impressive tank! Very colorful and unique fish.

Lumpy nailed the filter info.

Whatever you choose, let us know how it goes...

[Skyy God]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

I think a cichlid tank is definitely the way to go. You can have a huge degree of variety that way. And it's really not as hard as you'd think to have a bunch of different cichlids in the tank without having an aggressive atmosphere. There's infinite different species of non aggressive cichlids that would look much better than your normal tetras, mollies, etc. I have a variety of different cichlids in my tank, and I have no aggression or fighting at all. I've got a large Jack Dempsey(6"), a large green severum, 2 African cichlids, a parrotfish, 2 Peacock cichlids, 2 plecos, and a couple Cory cats(hilarious little guys). And it's a very peaceful tank. All the fish have beautiful fins and rarely even chase each other in the tank. Don't be scared off by cichlids...

I'm with Fish on this. If you started out wanting a salt tank, I don't see the jump to a planted tank with vanilla fish. You've got a ton of options for a 100G African cichlid setup.

[Lumpy]

To give you an idea for plants you can start out w/, here's a list of the ones I have in my tank...

Amazon Sword (Echinodorus amazonicus)
Anacharis (Egeria densa)
Cabomba-Purple (Cabomba caroliniana)
Congensis (Anubias congensis)
Crested Java Fern (Microsorium pteropus "Windelov")
Melon Sword (Echinodorus osiris)
Petite Nana (Anubias barteri 'Petite')
Wendtii Green (Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green')

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

To give you an idea for plants you can start out w/, here's a list of the ones I have in my tank...

Amazon Sword (Echinodorus amazonicus)
Anacharis (Egeria densa)
Cabomba-Purple (Cabomba caroliniana)
Congensis (Anubias congensis)
Crested Java Fern (Microsorium pteropus "Windelov")
Melon Sword (Echinodorus osiris)
Petite Nana (Anubias barteri 'Petite')
Wendtii Green (Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green')

Amazon Sword - bought one, now have 3. Slow growers but very pretty. When they shoot up the central stalk and it starts to bud, cut it off and plant it.

Anacharis - really best in a colder tank. Supposedly one of the easiest aquarium plants to keep but in my tanks (all 78-80 degrees) they don't last.

Cabomba - another cold-water plant, does better in ponds.

Anubias Nana or Dwarf Anubias - VERY slow grower, plant it in shaded areas as it will grow algae. Attracts black "beard" algae which is nearly impossible to get rid of short of plucking leaves and throwing them away.

Java Fern - slow grower, doesn't need much of anything and can do well even in low light. Reproduces by forming new plants at the tips of its leaves, so if you can wait, you only need 1. I bought 1 about a year ago and now have 12 in 2 different tanks.

Cryptocoryne Wendtii (green or red) - another hardy, low-light plant. Reproduces through runners and will eventually spread vigorously. Another one I bought 1 of and now have several.

Some other plants that deserve mention:

Ludwigia Repens (red Ludwigia) - stalk plant, grows in bunches. I've found it to be much more forgiving of a tropical Amazon setup (higher temp, lower pH) than Cabomba and Anacharis. With the right lighting and ferts, it turns a rosy red.

Hygrophilia Difformis - VERY forgiving plant. The biggest issue I've had with it is that it grows TOO well. Three 6-inch stalks now covers nearly 1/3 of my 55G tank, substrate to surface.

[Lumpy]

Good info, KC Fish! You know your shit too!

However, It sounds like Silock wants to go w/ a planted tank. Aren't Cichlids a big no-no w/ plants?

In regards to this... "They're all boring starter fish you'd find at any Petsmart. None of them will get very big, and few of them will have any "personality" that you'd see in bigger fish. They're dumb colony fish."

That's not entirely true. For instance, he could get a few Clown Loaches, (they grow to 12" and do best in groups of 3+), and they are full of personality and beauty. Once I rehome my Common Pleco, I plan on getting 2 more CL's. Here's a pic of mine...

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Good info, KC Fish! You know your shit too!

However, It sounds like Silock wants to go w/ a planted tank. Aren't Cichlids a big no-no w/ plants?

In regards to this... "They're all boring starter fish you'd find at any Petsmart. None of them will get very big, and few of them will have any "personality" that you'd see in bigger fish. They're dumb colony fish."

That's not entirely true. For instance, he could get a few Clown Loaches, (they grow to 12" and do best in groups of 3+), and they are full of personality and beauty. Once I rehome my Common Pleco, I plan on getting 2 more CL's. Here's a pic of mine...

I wouldn't say cichlids in general are a no-no for planted tanks. Certain species of cihlids are diggers though, and can uproot plants. But certainly not all. I've never really had a problem with plants being uprooted by my fish. It just depends on what you get.

And I didn't mean to sound harsh in regards to "boring starter fish". I'm just not a big fan of the little "dime-a-dozen" varieties that you find in every Petsmart. I grew bored with that a long time ago. I get much more satisfaction in having wide variety of larger fish of different types. It's more of a challenge I guess.

And I agree that clown loaches are pretty cool. But compare that to cichlid varieties like these:

Ngara Flametail cichlid:


Tropheus Firecracker cichlid:



Sunshine Peacock cichlid(I have one of these):


German Red Peacock cichlid(have one of these too, but not old enough to look this good):


That kind of color and variety is easily possible, and these are all mellow cichlids that would do fine together.

[Silock]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

I wouldn't say cichlids in general are a no-no for planted tanks. Certain species of cihlids are diggers though, and can uproot plants. But certainly not all. I've never really had a problem with plants being uprooted by my fish. It just depends on what you get.

And I didn't mean to sound harsh in regards to "boring starter fish". I'm just not a big fan of the little "dime-a-dozen" varieties that you find in every Petsmart. I grew bored with that a long time ago. I get much more satisfaction in having wide variety of larger fish of different types. It's more of a challenge I guess.

And I agree that clown loaches are pretty cool. But compare that to cichlid varieties like these:

Ngara Flametail cichlid:


Tropheus Firecracker cichlid:



Sunshine Peacock cichlid(I have one of these):


German Red Peacock cichlid(have one of these too, but not old enough to look this good):


That kind of color and variety is easily possible, and these are all mellow cichlids that would do fine together.

Fine together but what about with non cichlids? I don't want a cichlid only tank. Wife wants glofish and tetras.

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

My 55G tank is on the left. My daughter's 14G tank is on the right.

Beautiful tanks! I especially like what you did w/ the Driftwood! I have a 12" piece of Mopani for my Pleco and tried adding plants to it, but it was full of fail. I attached Anubias and Java Moss to it, but the bastard keeps knocking them off the wood.

Originally Posted by Silock

Fine together but what about with non cichlids? I don't want a cichlid only tank. Wife wants glofish and tetras.

That's all she wants?

[Silock]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

That's all she wants?

No, I made a list earlier in the thread. That list wasn't comprehensive, either. It was just what we found on liveaquaria. I'm sure there are more species out there that are very colorful (preferring reds and blues) that aren't cichlids.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

Beautiful tanks! I especially like what you did w/ the Driftwood! I have a 12" piece of Mopani for my Pleco and tried adding plants to it, but it was full of fail. I attached Anubias and Java Moss to it, but the bastard keeps knocking them off the wood.

I've used quite a bit of Mopani (the wood you see in the 14G tank is actually Mopani). I've attached Java fern and moss to Mopani with no issues and if you look closely at the 14G picture, behind the leaves of the Amazon sword, there's a java fern attached to the middle piece at the top. Of course, I don't have a pleco so you can probably guess which one is your issue.

I actually had more problems getting them attached to the new driftwood because it was so smooth (I ended up using the girls' little rubber bands for pony tails ) Mopani has so many little cracks and crevices, there's lots of places to stick plants. Here are some of my previous attempts:



My problem with Mopani is that it's so dense. In terms of tank decor, it eventually becomes more like a ROCK than a piece of wood, settling to the bottom and becoming un-assuming, which is the last thing you want from your centerpiece driftwood. I actually had some interesting Mopani arrangement but ultimately opted for the much more visually impressive hardwood piece you see in the pic I posted yesterday.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Silock

Fine together but what about with non cichlids? I don't want a cichlid only tank. Wife wants glofish and tetras.

No.

Cichlids will make quick work of glofish and tetras. What she wants is an Amazon-style freshwater tank, which is what I have. Softer water (lower pH), plants, etc. Cichlids (with some notable exceptions) are from Africa and water is hard with not alot of plants (because the Cichlids will destroy them). In fact, there's only certain Cichlids that can cohabitate. If you go with Cichlids, you're going to only have Cichlids (and perhaps some bottom dwellers like Pleco).

Like KC Fish said, alot of freshwater community fish are kind of boring. If you want "interesting" my daughter has Kuhli loaches.



She also has Killifish, which much like Bettas, have coloful males. This is what her's look like:



If you want to get some color but don't want Cichlids, I strongly recommend Colombian Tetras - they're my favorite fish.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Silock

Fine together but what about with non cichlids? I don't want a cichlid only tank. Wife wants glofish and tetras.

There are a handful of cichlids you can try with that bunch, but they're still iffy and can be pretty susceptible to bad water conditions.

I've found that I really enjoy the shell dwellers; they're fairly small Tanganyikans that breed like rabbits. They're very passive and fascinating to watch. They're kinda like the sea-monkeys of the cichlid kingdom in that they're constantly interacting with each other. That said, they're pure bottom runners, so they're more of a supplemental addition, IMO.

Bolivian Rams are awfully neat, especially when they pair off. They can be fairly colorful, but not always. Blue and Gold rams can be extremely attractive, but just a small water spike will kill them off. Usually right about the time they pair off and become badass, you'll look in the tank to see 'em floating. Kribensis could work as well (not a Rock Krib; those are Victorian and mean as hell, just a regular Kribensis).

Here's what I'd suggest - Rainbows.

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/rainbowfish/

They're extremely colorful, like cichlids. They' significantly more docile, though. They'll school better than Cichlids (who mostly just form territories and go to war). They seem to be much more in line with what your wife is looking for. If you're looking for a planed tank, these are unquestionably the way to go. I've had decent luck with them in the past, before I let my freshwater tank go to seed.

(!@#$ it, just save up your nickels and go saltwater; you'll never go back )