ZMA is the shit

[Fish]

Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY

You bet, I have done a ton of research over the years and have met with doctors I highly respect to take what I do. The research behind the benefits of ubiquinol alone on a cellular level are well documented. You can wiki it you want to scratch the surface but I am not going to go back and try to dig up every bit of documentation I have ever come across over the decades to validate each supp I take. Even that goofy chart posted earlier has most of what I take at the very top. If you don't already know the well documented benefits of what I take then you're friggen reeruned to begin with and it doesn't matter what you try and find to validate a contrarian position.

Some of you may need to be a bit older but lets look back at the crock of shit we have been sold over the years by our scientific community.

Most of you won't remember the controvery around glandulars of testosterone boost over 30 years ago but we were told it was crap that didn't work. I guess additonal zits, size increases and aggression must have been the placebo effect.

How about the demonization C and much more recently D-3?

How about when our scientific community tried to outlaw all supplentation period without a prescription. Anybody remember that one from like 1996 or so. Yea they don't work and it's all a hoax but you can still get them through big pharm with a prescription from your doctor. What a ****ing joke that was.

More recently their was the whole demonization of test and HGH wich has moved over to big money now as well. The scientific community was all behind that one.

Well, thanks for your response. I was hoping for something more than a personal opinion and an invitation to visit wiki. But I appreciate your honesty.

I don't really agree with your views on the scientific community and their role in supplements. There are very good reasons for outlawing all supplements. It's currently a giant unregulated misinformed mess of a market. And abolishing it has nothing to do with telling you want you can or can't put into your body. It's all about the snake oil manufacturers selling things as a cure all supplement with little to no evidence to support it. If it has the label "Supplement", there's no regulation on it, and the manufacturer can claim it makes your dick grow a foot, and they don't have to prove that it does. And many uninformed people out there will believe anything the label tells them. That's why supplements are treated with as much skepticism as they are. It's not some big scientific scandal at all.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

Well, thanks for your response. I was hoping for something more than a personal opinion and an invitation to visit wiki. But I appreciate your honesty.

I don't really agree with your views on the scientific community and their role in supplements. There are very good reasons for outlawing all supplements. It's currently a giant unregulated misinformed mess of a market. And abolishing it has nothing to do with telling you want you can or can't put into your body. It's all about the snake oil manufacturers selling things as a cure all supplement with little to no evidence to support it. If it has the label "Supplement", there's no regulation on it, and the manufacturer can claim it makes your dick grow a foot, and they don't have to prove that it does. And many uninformed people out there will believe anything the label tells them. That's why supplements are treated with as much skepticism as they are. It's not some big scientific scandal at all.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Some things should be self-evident like absorbing all the c you put in your system when you are sick. Your body is using it. The supps I take have well documented benefits. I am not going to waste and entire day digging stuff up for you. Anyone taking D3 and C will notice they get sick a lot less. I am sure there are many posters right here who can verify that for you although you won't believe it because some government agency may post an article saying it is horseshit and just a placebo. When I came in here talking about the eliminating allergies (hayfeaver) with garlic I had even the most skeptical of poster in Dave confirm it works. When I talked about topical green tea eliminating the earliest signs of skin cancer I got laughed off the board but have had confirmations since. I will agree with you that there is a ton of supplementation out there that is crap and even more manufacturers who produce inferior products but people like you are far more dangerous than the supplementation industry. You would have people believe that the only thing that works in the world is big pharms take through the FDA. Outlawing supplementation wasn't a scientific scandal as much as it was a follow the money scandal initiated by big pharm using their scientists to say anything that was necessary to gain control of a 60 Billion dollar industry. I don't know what's more amazing your inability to grasp that or your outright denial that supplementation of any kind has benefits and makes a difference in people's quality of life. Outlawing supplementation wasn't really outlawing it at all, you could still get it but now it would be by prescription from your doctor straight from big pharm.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Some things should be self-evident like absorbing all the c you put in your system when you are sick. Your body is using it. The supps I take have well documented benefits. I am not going to waste and entire day digging stuff up for you. Anyone taking D3 and C will notice they get sick a lot less. I am sure there are many posters right here who can verify that for you although you won't believe it because some government agency may post an article saying it is horseshit and just a placebo. When I came in here talking about the eliminating allergies (hayfeaver) with garlic I had even the most skeptical of poster in Dave confirm it works. When I talked about topical green tea eliminating the earliest signs of skin cancer I got laughed off the board but have had confirmations since. I will agree with you that there is a ton of supplementation out there that is crap and even more manufacturers who produce inferior products but people like you are far more dangerous than the supplementation industry. You would have people believe that the only thing that works in the world is big pharms take through the FDA. Outlawing supplementation wasn't a scientific scandal as much as it was a follow the money scandal initiated by big pharm using their scientists to say anything that was necessary to gain control of a 60 Billion dollar industry. I don't know what's more amazing your inability to grasp that or your outright denial that supplementation of any kind has benefits and makes a difference in people's quality of life. Outlawing supplementation wasn't really outlawing it at all, you could still get it but now it would be by prescription from your doctor straight from big pharm.

If there are well documented benefits, then it shouldn't be hard to dig up your "Sources". I managed to dig up plenty that support my stance, and didn't waste an entire day. All you're offering up is personal opinions. If my information is untrue, then it should't take much effort to find the truth. But OK...

And FYI... you should limit the amount of Vitamin C you put into your body. Too much Vitamin C can cause stomach ache, diarrhea, and can slow metabolism. The body can only absorb so much, and anything past that isn't beneficial and can be pretty uncomfortable.

You have also grossly confused my opinions on pretty much everything in your post. I really hate Big Pharm. I don't support them, and I feel they do much more harm than good. I've never said that supplements provide no benefits for anything. What I said was that they rarely provide the benefits described, and aren't worth the money for the majority of people. Big difference. Also, you continue to lump Big Pharm and the Supplement industry together. They are not the same thing.

Big Pharm is at least somewhat held to a standard of proof by the FDA. I know you think the FDA is also evil. And while they are far from perfect, the good they do far outweighs the bad. Big Pharm would be infinitely worse without the FDA. The Supplement industry has zero standards at all. They can claim whatever they want, and they can even hire an actor to put on a doctor's gown and claim it as a proven miracle cure. Outlawing supplementation wouldn't just shift the product into Big Pharm's domain. It would shift it into the FDA's domain, which would require testing and studies to be done before allowing supplement manufacturers to make health claims for it. But that would be the supplement industry's undoing though, since it would require proof. The industry would simply go away for the most part, because they could no longer legally sell lies.

To say that I'm worse than the entire supplement industry is pretty funny. My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself. Just don't base your decisions on personal opinions that aren't founded.

[BigCatDaddy]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

If there are well documented benefits, then it shouldn't be hard to dig up your "Sources". I managed to dig up plenty that support my stance, and didn't waste an entire day. All you're offering up is personal opinions. If my information is untrue, then it should't take much effort to find the truth. But OK...

And FYI... you should limit the amount of Vitamin C you put into your body. Too much Vitamin C can cause stomach ache, diarrhea, and can slow metabolism. The body can only absorb so much, and anything past that isn't beneficial and can be pretty uncomfortable.

You have also grossly confused my opinions on pretty much everything in your post. I really hate Big Pharm. I don't support them, and I feel they do much more harm than good. I've never said that supplements provide no benefits for anything. What I said was that they rarely provide the benefits described, and aren't worth the money for the majority of people. Big difference. Also, you continue to lump Big Pharm and the Supplement industry together. They are not the same thing.

Big Pharm is at least somewhat held to a standard of proof by the FDA. I know you think the FDA is also evil. And while they are far from perfect, the good they do far outweighs the bad. Big Pharm would be infinitely worse without the FDA. The Supplement industry has zero standards at all. They can claim whatever they want, and they can even hire an actor to put on a doctor's gown and claim it as a proven miracle cure. Outlawing supplementation wouldn't just shift the product into Big Pharm's domain. It would shift it into the FDA's domain, which would require testing and studies to be done before allowing supplement manufacturers to make health claims for it. But that would be the supplement industry's undoing though, since it would require proof. The industry would simply go away for the most part, because they could no longer legally sell lies.

To say that I'm worse than the entire supplement industry is pretty funny. My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself. Just don't base your decisions on personal opinions that aren't founded.

So you want big brother to tell you what's good for you rather then leaving it up to people to do their own research and choose for themselves?

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Slick

So you want big brother to tell you what's good for you rather then leaving it up to people to do their own research and choose for themselves?

Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said this:

My only goal is for people to be correctly informed, and not believe whatever BS is printed on the bottle. Seek out further information. Look into studies that have been done. Look into studies that both support and criticize, and decide for yourself.

[BigCatDaddy]

Originally Posted by KC Fish

Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said this:

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting the "outlawing" of supplements when you listed reasons why it should be done.