2013 Sandbox Simulations League 2 - Page 26

**Old Dog** · 01:06 PM

Complete Rookie draft

Spoiler!

Owners

Spoiler!

DJ's left nut · 05-28-2013, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

It's not really drafting well if you don't have enough confidence to sign your draftees to long contracts. At that point it's just lucky drafting if your draft picks pan out.

So if you draft a guy in the 3rd round that you think has great potential it should cost you the same to sign him for 5 years that it would cost to sign your first rounder?

There's literally no differentiation between your high end first rounders and the rest of the draft. If I think Jayron Hosely has long-term potential and want to keep him for 4 years, I have to pay him like the same amount that I'll be paying to an established badass C like John Sullivan.

That's bizarre. Especially if, like I said, there's no way to keep these guys out of FA later. In the NFL, it's RFA that allows teams to really reap the rewards of the late-round picks that pan out, but that doesn't really exist under this setup.

Ultimately I guess it's just a league decision to put greater emphasis on the free-agent market and I suppose that's defensible; it creates 2 thriving markets for players instead of 1. In the end, though, I'd like to see some mechanism whereby we can extend guys we think are about to bust out and actually extend them below market or the possibility of having a more graduate salary scale for later round picks.

**Old Dog** · 05-28-2013, 10:51 AM

Yeah, I'm not liking the idea that it costs as much to lock up my punter long term costs as much as it does to lock up a QB for the same amount of time....that seems odd

TambaBerry · 05-28-2013, 10:56 AM

Ya, QB for 7 years should be like 200, P for 7 years should be like 50

patteeu · 05-28-2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Dog

Yeah, I'm not liking the idea that it costs as much to lock up my punter long term costs as much as it does to lock up a QB for the same amount of time....that seems odd

If your punter isn't valuable enough to lock up, you don't have to lock him up. Just let him go and get another one.

It's great when a simulation game can mimic reality as closely as possible, but there's a tradeoff between that level of complexity and both playability and unintended consequences that has to be considered.

**Old Dog** · 05-28-2013, 11:03 AM

Eagle Rob....check your smokes

**Rain Man** · 05-28-2013, 11:35 AM

Another thing I'm wondering is if the market for elite players will be more expensive anyway. There's no limit on the amount you can pay for an elite quarterback, so will they blow by the 100 point mark on the free agent market? If that's the case, then rookies could become pretty cheap.

Nonetheless, thanks for the critiques. We're looking into everything people bring up. As patteeu said, we're trying to find a good balance between playability and complexity.

DJ's left nut · 05-28-2013, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Another thing I'm wondering is if the market for elite players will be more expensive anyway. There's no limit on the amount you can pay for an elite quarterback, so will they blow by the 100 point mark on the free agent market? If that's the case, then rookies could become pretty cheap.

Nonetheless, thanks for the critiques. We're looking into everything people bring up. As patteeu said, we're trying to find a good balance between playability and complexity.

That's where I keep ending up.

I don't see a chance in hell that Cruz and Sherman don't go for well over $100 pts - I'd just be shocked. There are a few really bad teams that will have the money to spend, so they'll spend it and they'll drive that bidding through the roof.

My team has quite a bit of young talent on it so I think I'm going to end up using nearly all my FA money on my own roster.

But where I think it gets more dicey is not the high end guys, but rather the middle-tier players. I think Brandon Browner ends up with a 5 year deal at least. Some like Ramon Foster could even end up in the 4-5 year range and really, there's not a crapload of wiggle room in between the tiers.

It'll be interesting to see how it goes and it will only get stranger over the next 2-3 years. I think we're going to have an active FA market, but I worry a little that it might stifle the trade market that way. We shall see.

trndobrd · 05-28-2013, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Exactly. In fact, I was meaning to change the language from "salary points" to "signing points". Once a guy is on your team you don't have to worry about him any more until his contract hits zero or he retires or you decide to cut him or trade him. The only time the points come into play is signing people.

What if the player is unavailable for a portion of the contract through retirement, injury, etc? Say I sign Titus Young to a 7 year deal and he is unexpectedly unavailable from year 4 on, do I receive a portion of my money back or am I just SOL?

**cdcox** · 05-28-2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trndobrd

What if the player is unavailable for a portion of the contract through retirement, injury, etc? Say I sign Titus Young to a 7 year deal and he is unexpectedly unavailable from year 4 on, do I receive a portion of my money back or am I just SOL?

SOL, but over the long run it will affect everyone the same, as long as you are making sound decisions with your contracts. If you continually give 7 year contracts to 32 year old RBs, it won't work out for you. However with good investments, over the long run the bad luck is just part of the game.

We want to save people the tedium of balancing a salary cap while at the same time introducing some of the resource constraints faced by real GMs.With some tweaking, I think the system we have can do that.

TambaBerry · 05-28-2013, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

That's where I keep ending up.

I don't see a chance in hell that Cruz and Sherman don't go for well over $100 pts - I'd just be shocked. There are a few really bad teams that will have the money to spend, so they'll spend it and they'll drive that bidding through the roof.

My team has quite a bit of young talent on it so I think I'm going to end up using nearly all my FA money on my own roster.

But where I think it gets more dicey is not the high end guys, but rather the middle-tier players. I think Brandon Browner ends up with a 5 year deal at least. Some like Ramon Foster could even end up in the 4-5 year range and really, there's not a crapload of wiggle room in between the tiers.

It'll be interesting to see how it goes and it will only get stranger over the next 2-3 years. I think we're going to have an active FA market, but I worry a little that it might stifle the trade market that way. We shall see.

do you have a different pool then me, Cruz isnt in my free agents

trndobrd · 05-28-2013, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox

SOL, but over the long run it will affect everyone the same, as long as you are making sound decisions with your contracts. If you continually give 7 year contracts to 32 year old RBs, it won't work out for you. However with good investments, over the long run the bad luck is just part of the game.

We want to save people the tedium of balancing a salary cap while at the same time introducing some of the resource constraints faced by real GMs.With some tweaking, I think the system we have can do that.

If this has been covered in an earlier post, I apologize. Does the contract follow the player in a trade? Obviously a top player with five years remaining on a seven year contract would have more value than one year remaining.

On the flip side, will owners have an opportunity to lockup newly acquired players after a trade or free agency? For instance, if I bid $25 on Andy Studebaker and win the auction, will I have an opportunity to immediately sign him to a seven year deal, or am I forced to bid based on the contract length I would like?

For bids exceeding $400 (28 year contract) are player's children immediately considered under contract when they reach adulthood?

**cdcox** · 05-28-2013, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tambaberry

do you have a different pool then me, Cruz isnt in my free agents

In league 2, Cruz is already a happy member of the Los Angeles Knights. He was picked up in the initial veteran draft before the 2011 season, so he's not part of the free agent pool in that league. DJLN is in league 1.

**cdcox** · 05-28-2013, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trndobrd

If this has been covered in an earlier post, I apologize. Does the contract follow the player in a trade? Obviously a top player with five years remaining on a seven year contract would have more value than one year remaining.

On the flip side, will owners have an opportunity to lockup newly acquired players after a trade or free agency? For instance, if I bid $25 on Andy Studebaker and win the auction, will I have an opportunity to immediately sign him to a seven year deal, or am I forced to bid based on the contract length I would like?

For bids exceeding $400 (28 year contract) are player's children immediately considered under contract when they reach adulthood?

Yes, contracts follow the players in a trade.

There is no extension of contracts without going through free agency. If you want a longer deal for Andy Studebaker, you need to bid more for him in free agency.

Maximum contract length for any player is 7 years.

**Rain Man** · 05-28-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trndobrd

If this has been covered in an earlier post, I apologize. Does the contract follow the player in a trade? Obviously a top player with five years remaining on a seven year contract would have more value than one year remaining.

On the flip side, will owners have an opportunity to lockup newly acquired players after a trade or free agency? For instance, if I bid $25 on Andy Studebaker and win the auction, will I have an opportunity to immediately sign him to a seven year deal, or am I forced to bid based on the contract length I would like?

For bids exceeding $400 (28 year contract) are player's children immediately considered under contract when they reach adulthood?

I'll echo cdcox's answers.

One way to think about the contract lengths is that they're a ceiling, not a requirement. In general, teams will want to sign the better players to longer contracts, so this system is an easy way to do that. And if you want a high-priced player for only a year, who cares if you get the rights to him for seven years? It's all front-loaded and you paid the same for him, so you can drop him if you don't need him any more.

And on the other end, in the Studebaker example, if you want to sign him to a seven-year deal it's probably because you think he's ascending. If that's the case then at some point he's going to hold out and demand a renegotiation. This system avoids that problem.

trndobrd · 05-28-2013, 11:13 PM

Thanks for the answers. This all sounds great, I'm just trying to game out my four year plan.

One more question for this evening...As I understand the system, if a player's contract has ended, they come up on the FA market. Highest bid wins, then the previous contract holder has the option on beat that bid. Is that a one-and-done, or does the auction winner have an opportunity to come back and 're-raise', and go back and forth between the auction winner and previous owner?

05-14-2013, 12:30 PM
Old Dog Supporter Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Central Kansas Casino cash: $4766131	2013 Sandbox Simulations League 2 Complete Rookie draft Spoiler! 1 Lexington Akitas Andrew Luck 2 Aurora Borealis Robert Griffin III 3 Waco Compound Fires Russell Wilson 4 Kansas City Fubar Ryan Tannehill 5 Wichita Shox Luke Kuechly 6 Los Angeles Knights Alfred Morris 7 Lubbock knuckle draggers Trent Richardson 8 Seattle Undertakers Doug Martin 9 Little Rock Nine Morris Claiborne 10 Sioux Falls Swagger Matt Kalil 11 Pomona Platypi Bobby Wagner 12 St. Louis spiders Mark Barron 13 Independence Jokers Dontari Poe 14 Provo Lone Wolf Pack Justin Blackmon 15 Pembroke Pines Patteeus T.Y. Hilton 16 Round Rock TambaTornado Fletcher Cox 17 Columbia KC Hood Starz Quinton Coples 18 Aurora Borealis Dont'a Hightower 19 Rancho Cucamonga RedRage Bernard Pierce 20 Topeka Thugs Michael Brockers 21 Fort Collins Horseteeth Casey Hayward 22 Corona Lights Josh Gordon 23 Pompano Beach Pandas Bruce Irvin 24 Oklahoma City Outlaws Andre Branch 25 Lexington Akitas Stephon Gilmore 26 Anchorage Eskimos Kendall Wright 27 Waco Compound Fires Derek Wolfe 28 Kansas City Fubar Riley Reiff 29 Wichita Shox LaMichael James 30 Los Angeles Knights Harrison Smith 31 Lubbock knuckle draggers Michael Floyd 32 Seattle Undertakers Janoris Jenkins 33 Little Rock Nine Chandler Jones 34 Sioux Falls Swagger Dre Kirkpatrick 35 St. Louis spiders Lavonte David 36 St. Louis spiders Zach Brown 37 Independence Jokers Coby Fleener 38 Provo Lone Wolf Pack Melvin Ingram 39 Pembroke Pines Patteeus Peter Konz 40 Round Rock TambaTornado Tavon Wilson 41 Columbia KC Hood Starz Alshon Jeffery 42 Aurora Borealis Kevin Zeitler 43 Rancho Cucamonga RedRage Amini Silatolu 44 Topeka Thugs Jonathan Martin 45 Fort Collins Horseteeth Dwayne Allen 46 Corona Lights Vick Ballard 47 Pompano Beach Pandas Whitney Mercilus 48 Oklahoma City Outlaws Stephen Hill 49 Lexington Akitas Courtney Upshaw 50 Aurora Borealis David Wilson 51 Waco Compound Fires David DeCastro 52 Kansas City Fubar Kendall Reyes 53 Wichita Shox A.J. Jenkins 54 Los Angeles Knights Mychal Kendricks 55 Lubbock knuckle draggers Shea McClellin 56 Seattle Undertakers Demario Davis 57 Little Rock Nine Cordy Glenn 58 Sioux Falls Swagger Brandon Weeden 59 Pomona Platypi Miles Burris 60 Pomona Platypi Kelechi Osemele 61 Independence Jokers Jeff Allen 62 Provo Lone Wolf Pack Nick Perry 63 Pembroke Pines Patteeus Mike Harris 64 Round Rock TambaTornado Josh Robinson 65 Seattle Undertakers Mitchell Schwartz 66 Anchorage Eskimos Alfonzo Dennard 67 Rancho Cucamonga RedRage Josh Norman 68 Topeka Thugs Nick Foles 69 Fort Collins Horseteeth Mike Martin 70 Corona Lights Kirk Cousins 71 Pompano Beach Pandas Chris Givens 72 Oklahoma City Outlaws Brian Quick 73 Lexington Akitas Olivier Vernon 74 Anchorage Eskimos Nigel Bradham 75 Waco Compound Fires James-Michael Johnson 76 Kansas City Fubar Mike Adams 77 Wichita Shox Ryan Broyles 78 Los Angeles Knights Trumaine Johnson 79 Lubbock knuckle draggers Devon Still 80 Seattle Undertakers Rueben Randle 81 St. Louis spiders Blair Walsh 82 Sioux Falls Swagger Isaiah Pead 83 Pompano Beach Pandas Mohamed Sanu 84 Pompano Beach Pandas Jeron McMillian 85 Independence Jokers Daryl Richardson 86 Provo Lone Wolf Pack Jerel Worthy 87 Pembroke Pines Patteeus Robert Turbin 88 Round Rock TambaTornado John Hughes 89 Columbia KC Hood Starz Brock Osweiler 90 Anchorage Eskimos Bryce Brown 91 Rancho Cucamonga RedRage Billy Winn 92 Topeka Thugs Vinny Curry 93 Fort Collins Horseteeth Ben Jones 94 Corona Lights Travis Benjamin 95 Pompano Beach Pandas Brandon Boykin 96 Oklahoma City Outlaws Ronnie Hillman 97 Lexington Akitas Dennis Kelly 98 Aurora Borealis Donald Stephenson 99 Waco Compound Fires Bobby Massie 100 Kansas City Fubar Orson Charles 101 Wichita Shox Michael Egnew 102 Los Angeles Knights Akiem Hicks 103 Lubbock knuckle draggers Brandon Taylor 104 Seattle Undertakers Tony Bergstrom 105 Little Rock Nine Nate Potter 106 Sioux Falls Swagger Devier Posey 107 Pomona Platypi Bryan Anger 108 St. Louis spiders Jonte Green 109 Independence Jokers David Molk 110 Provo Lone Wolf Pack T.J. Graham 111 Pembroke Pines Patteeus Lamar Miller 112 Round Rock TambaTornado Chris Rainey 113 Columbia KC Hood Starz Josh Leribeus 114 Anchorage Eskimos Josh Chapman 115 Rancho Cucamonga RedRage Juron Criner 116 Topeka Thugs Mike Daniels 117 Fort Collins Horseteeth Danny Trevathan 118 Corona Lights Gino Gradkowski 119 Pomona Platypi Greg Zuerlein 120 Oklahoma City Outlaws Brandon Brooks 121 Lexington Akitas Rhett Ellison 122 Aurora Borealis Jayron Hosley 123 Waco Compound Fires Tyrone Crawford 124 Kansas City Fubar Jamell Fleming 125 Wichita Shox Devon Wylie 126 Los Angeles Knights Ron Brooks 127 Lubbock knuckle draggers Sean Spence 128 Seattle Undertakers Jared Crick 129 Little Rock Nine J R Sweezy 130 Sioux Falls Swagger Brandon Hardin 131 Pomona Platypi Jarius Wright 132 St. Louis spiders Frank Alexander 133 Independence Jokers Alameda Ta'amu 134 Provo Lone Wolf Pack Dwight Bentley 135 Pembroke Pines Patteeus Jeremy Lane 136 Round Rock TambaTornado Brad Nortman 137 Columbia KC Hood Starz Jake Bequette 138 Anchorage Eskimos Richard Crawford 139 Rancho Cucamonga RedRage Corey White 140 Topeka Thugs Kelvin Beachum 141 Fort Collins Horseteeth Greg Scruggs 142 Corona Lights Ladarius Green 143 Pompano Beach Pandas Kyle Wilber 144 Oklahoma City Outlaws Lamar Holmes 145 Lexington Akitas Tank Carder 146 Aurora Borealis David Paulson 147 Waco Compound Fires Brandon Thompson 148 Kansas City Fubar Tahir Whitehead 149 Wichita Shox Brandon Mosley 150 Los Angeles Knights Ryan Miller 151 Lubbock knuckle draggers Philip Blake 152 Seattle Undertakers Najee Goode 153 Little Rock Nine Keshawn Martin 154 Sioux Falls Swagger Omar Bolden 155 Pompano Beach Pandas Evan Rodriguez 156 St. Louis spiders Taylor Thompson 157 Independence Jokers Joe Adams 158 Provo Lone Wolf Pack Jaye Howard 159 Pembroke Pines Patteeus Marvin Jones 160 Round Rock TambaTornado James Hanna 161 Columbia KC Hood Starz Coty Sensabaugh 162 Anchorage Eskimos Jonathan Massaquoi 163 Rancho Cucamonga RedRage Christo Bilukidi 164 Topeka Thugs Deangelo Tyson 165 Fort Collins Horseteeth Malik Jackson 166 Corona Lights Matt Johnson 167 Pompano Beach Pandas Joe Looney 168 Oklahoma City Outlaws Keenan Robinson Owners Spoiler! Anchorage Eskimos Rain Man Aurora Borealis ebolapox Columbia KC Hood Starz Nick (Not a CP member - communicate via old dog?) Corona Lights brorth Fort Collins Horseteeth magichef Independence Jokers blazzin311 Kansas City Fubars rtmike Lexington Akitas Eaglerob Little Rock Nine kstater (not yet confirmed) Los Angeles Knights cdcox Lubbock Knuckle Draggers bevischief Oklahoma City Outlaws jreid18 (not sure if that's his CP handle) (not yet confirmed) Pembroke Pines Patteeus patteeu Pomona Platypi old dog Pompano Beach Pandas ozona (not sure if that's his CP handle) Provo Lone Wolf Pack dartgod Rancho Cucamonga RedRage dtforever (not yet confirmed) Round Rock TambaTornado trndobrd Seattle Undertakers Andchiefs (not yet confirmed) Sioux Falls Swagger hootie St. Louis Spiders tambaberry Topeka Thugs KCChiefsMan Waco Compound Fires sully Wichita Shox tsyou606 Last edited by Old Dog; 05-26-2013 at 01:06 PM.. Reason: updating
Posts: 10,662

05-28-2013, 10:51 AM	#377
Old Dog Supporter Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Central Kansas Casino cash: $4766131	Yeah, I'm not liking the idea that it costs as much to lock up my punter long term costs as much as it does to lock up a QB for the same amount of time....that seems odd
Posts: 10,662

05-28-2013, 10:56 AM	#378
TambaBerry MVP Join Date: Jan 2013 Casino cash: $1675541	Ya, QB for 7 years should be like 200, P for 7 years should be like 50
Posts: 10,609

05-28-2013, 11:03 AM	#380
Old Dog Supporter Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Central Kansas Casino cash: $4766131	Eagle Rob....check your smokes
Posts: 10,662

05-28-2013, 11:35 AM	#381
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3318491 VARSITY	Another thing I'm wondering is if the market for elite players will be more expensive anyway. There's no limit on the amount you can pay for an elite quarterback, so will they blow by the 100 point mark on the free agent market? If that's the case, then rookies could become pretty cheap. Nonetheless, thanks for the critiques. We're looking into everything people bring up. As patteeu said, we're trying to find a good balance between playability and complexity. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,428

05-28-2013, 11:13 PM	#390
trndobrd 'Stachecicle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Tolerance Box Casino cash: $4955087	Thanks for the answers. This all sounds great, I'm just trying to game out my four year plan. One more question for this evening...As I understand the system, if a player's contract has ended, they come up on the FA market. Highest bid wins, then the previous contract holder has the option on beat that bid. Is that a one-and-done, or does the auction winner have an opportunity to come back and 're-raise', and go back and forth between the auction winner and previous owner? __________________ "I don't really think there is a need to raise or debate this point." -jAZ
Posts: 7,076