Star Wars: The Old Republic

[keg in kc]

Don't believe there's a dedicated thread, and since they're starting to release information now, I figure it's time for one.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

And I should clarify that what I mean by that isn't so much that PvP is bad, it's that trying to balance it in a story-heavy, solo-friendly PvE focused game creates so many problems. The one worry I've always had with this game in the long term is that they're trying to cater to too many audiences.

Story-heavy, solo-friendly only gets you from 1 to 50. That doesn't sound like a very successful MMO model, IMO.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Pants

Story-heavy, solo-friendly only gets you from 1 to 50. That doesn't sound like a very successful MMO model, IMO.

Endgame emphasis was always going to be re-rolling (that's what the legacy system is for...) along with what's become the standard endgame grind.

It's kind of a moot argument, because they did put PvP in as an ancillary system, but so far it seems to be more of a net negative than a positive. Both in terms of the community that it attracts and the technical/logistical problems its causing in the game. Hopefully they work it out. Although half of me hopes that they don't and all the swtor forum raging PvP sociopaths really do cancel like they're all saying they have.

And story-heavy, solo friendly most certainly does not just get you to 50. I've been there for a while now and I'm still working on my class story. Hitting the level cap does not mean the story ends, or that the game ends or that you don't have anything to do but grind for gear. That's a mindset that needs to be changed that unfortunately likely never will, because that's the way it's been with previous games in the genre.

The best part about this game, in my humble opinion, was the fact that I basically never cared about leveling while I was leveling, and I don't care that I'm not doing it now that I'm fifty. There's still dozens of hours of (solo) content left for me to do on my level capped main, and there will be even more of it to do when they do the 1.2 patch in March and introduce Denova.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Endgame emphasis was always going to be re-rolling (that's what the legacy system is for...) along with what's become the standard endgame grind.

It's kind of a moot argument, because they did put PvP in as an ancillary system, but so far it seems to be more of a net negative than a positive. Both in terms of the community that it attracts and the technical/logistical problems its causing in the game. Hopefully they work it out. Although half of me hopes that they don't and all the swtor forum raging PvP sociopaths really do cancel like they're all saying they have.

And story-heavy, solo friendly most certainly does not just get you to 50. I've been there for a while now and I'm still working on my class story. Hitting the level cap does not mean the story ends, or that the game ends or that you don't have anything to do but grind for gear. That's a mindset that needs to be changed that unfortunately likely never will, because that's the way it's been with previous games in the genre.

The best part about this game, in my humble opinion, was the fact that I basically never cared about leveling while I was leveling, and I don't care that I'm not doing it now that I'm fifty. There's still dozens of hours of (solo) content left for me to do on my level capped main, and there will be even more of it to do when they do the 1.2 patch in March and introduce Denova.

I have no interest in re-rolling. I have my character, I get attached to it and I want to keep improving it. And by the way, the JK story has been incredibly "meh" so far. I don't know how they go from the greatness that was the KOTOR story (and Mass Effect) to something like this... Maybe I just haven't reached the juicy part, yet.

Back to the subject though...

Forget I said the story gets you from 1 to 50. What happens to those who reach the end of the story (even if it's 20 hours after you hit the level cap)? If the model is to re-roll or cancel the sub, that is one shitty MMO model and will not make any money for the developer. If the model is constantly writing in more story with patches and increasing the level cap, I guess it could work. That, however, would require a lot of resources I would think, and probably isn't very feasible.

To be honest, it sounds to me like you'd rather play a single player game. The point of all MMOs has always been endgame. What's the point of even having an MMO where the point of the whole game is to solo through a linear story and then start soloing through a different story? That's not an MMO premise, that's a single player RPG premise.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Pants

I have no interest in re-rolling. I have my character, I get attached to it and I want to keep improving it. And by the way, the JK story has been incredibly "meh" so far. I don't know how they go from the greatness that was the KOTOR story (and Mass Effect) to something like this... Maybe I just haven't reached the juicy part, yet.

Not wanting to reroll is your loss. Because there's an entirely different faction to play with an entirely new and different set of quests to experience.

If the model is to re-roll or cancel the sub, that is one shitty MMO model and will not make any money for the developer

I said "Endgame emphasis was always going to be re-rolling (that's what the legacy system is for...) along with what's become the standard endgame grind".

That's two things, re-rolling and the endgame (i.e. raid) grind. Nowhere did I say anything about "re-roll or cancel the sub", nor did I say that "the point of the whole game is to solo through a linear story and then start soloing through a different story".

Re-rolling was and is an alternative to raid grinding. That's the whole point for the legacy system, to give people an additional incentive to have more than one character. Because the mindset has been burned into MMO players brains by prior games that MMOs are burning through the game to reach the level cap and then start the "real game". When with TOR 1-50 is as much a part of the "real game" as the endgame. And rerolling in TOR is not playing the same exact story over again, unlike every other MMO I've played (along with virtually every other singleplayer game I've played). The planets are the same, obviously, but the class stories are not.

But re-rolling is by no means supposed to be the only thing that people do once they hit 50. Hence flashpoints and operations and new planets and, of course, PvP.


And, yes, I have always played MMOs like they were single player games. Because I'm about as anti-social as you can get. I played Everquest that way, I played SWG that way, I played WoW that way, I played LotRO that way and I'm playing SWTOR that way. I do group and I do raid, and I do enjoy doing them both - I have a very small guild with a group of friends - but they will never, ever be the driving force behind the game for me. I'm never (again) going to be somebody who grinds 5 nights a week to raid the other two. I find it extremely boring to play the same content over and over (which goes for warzones as much as for flashpoints and ops). Which is why I love the fact that this is a game where I can play different characters that have different missions, and even completely different factions. Because in previous games, playing alts was literally having to do the same exact shit over-and-over again, and that was in some ways even worse than the raid grind.

I get that you're diametrically opposed to alts. A couple of friends of mine are, as well. And I think it's your and their loss, because unlike re-rolling in WoW or any other MMO, you're actually missing out on things by not doing it. But hey, you pays your money, so feel free to do (or not do) whatever you want...

[kcxiv]

Originally Posted by Pants

Story-heavy, solo-friendly only gets you from 1 to 50. That doesn't sound like a very successful MMO model, IMO.

That was put out there from the beginning i beleive. If anyone ever did any kind of research on the game it was out there.

Anyways, Game is not the best mmo i have played, but its alright Ill play for a bit, i havent been on it 4 hours a day or anything, but i do play.

I like more forced grouping, but the way to make the mighty dollar isnt into that anymore, so you just gotta accept it or move on from the genre.

[Pants]

keg,

My apologies, I didn't see that "along" in the end game emphasis, I read that more as "instead" for some reason, and that's my bad.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like grinding either, and I love the way questing is done in this game and I enjoy the game atmosphere greatly. Let's face it, though, you can't level on the unique story of your class alone, you have to do the other 80% of the game (at least up to the point I'm at) that is comprised of the quests shared by all the classes. I understand the quests are different for Empire, but that's just not my style. I really don't want to play for Empire, like AT ALL.

I guess I'm kind of the opposite of you. I love starting a random Ops and bringing down a world boss, it's hilarious and there a lot of that camaraderie feeling you get out of that. I enjoy finally killing the Taral V boss on the 5th attempt with 3 random dudes trying to work together as hard as possible. Those are the epic moments that make this game so addicting, not the silly super weapons story line (although it does make leveling a much better enterprise). To me, the class story and the voiced quests are more like a means to make the 1-50 grind more interesting and more engaging and the game is successful in that respect, but I just don't see how that could be THE focus of an MMO.

I only wish my IRL friends liked this sort of thing instead of being ignorant idiots.

[keg in kc]

As far as story greatness goes, unfortunately I haven't found anything in the game so far that matches KOTOR or ME 1/2. I do like the smuggler story a lot, but haven't been a big fan of either of the Jedi stories to the point that I've played them, although Consular has had some great individual moments.

What I have heard is that the best moments for all classes (both factions) come in Act 3, but I haven't finished Act 3 for anyone yet, so I can't actually confirm or deny that. I will say that I did prefer Act 1 on the Sith side classes to all of the classes that I have played so far on the Republic side (everything but trooper).

My sage story (currently on Corellia doing level 47ish stuff, 2nd to last planet) does feel like it's building to something epic, for probably the first time.

Now that sounds harsh, but I have enjoyed a number of the world arcs. So I actually have been liking the great majority of the story content, and it is what's kept me playing, but I do at the same time feel a little let down by the storytelling on the Republic side of the line.

Which unfortunately may be part of the reason for the faction balance. Not only is the empire "cooler", the stories seem to be better.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by kcxiv

That was put out there from the beginning i beleive. If anyone ever did any kind of research on the game it was out there.

Anyways, Game is not the best mmo i have played, but its alright Ill play for a bit, i havent been on it 4 hours a day or anything, but i do play.

I like more forced grouping, but the way to make the mighty dollar isnt into that anymore, so you just gotta accept it or move on from the genre.

That's fine. They also put out there from the beginning that the endgame and PvP were going to be there and they are.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Pants

I guess I'm kind of the opposite of you. I love starting a random Ops and bringing down a world boss, it's hilarious and there a lot of that camaraderie feeling you get out of that . I enjoy finally killing the Taral V boss on the 5th attempt with 3 random dudes trying to work together as hard as possible

I would probably do more of that kind of stuff if i could. It's kind of hard to explain, but I'm pretty severely handicapped socially- speaking. I don't do well in any situation with people that I don't know. I don't know how to describe it, it's kind of an extreme and debilitating anxiety. I have in the past (not in TOR, in other games) sometimes done stuff with random people, but it's really, really rare. And it always has to be something planned ahead of time that I psyche myself up for.

It's actually a big problem for me in real life, even doing simple things for me can be difficult, like getting a new drivers license or even getting a haircut or going to the grocery, places I'm familiar with but potentially filled with strangers. It all stems from life-long self esteem issues. I have real problems with how people perceive me.

Not something I talk about very much obviously...

But it carries over into my mmo behavior just like it does in real life. Although I have slowly gotten better. There was a time when I wouldn't get on vent because I didn't like the sound of my own voice, and crazy stuff like that.

I should probably try and do more than I am. It's actually a good environment for it.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by Pants

That's fine. They also put out there from the beginning that the endgame and PvP were going to be there and they are.

Actually world-PvP, which is what I'm talking about when I bitch about PvP, wasn't in there from the beginning. I'm sure they've been working on it for a while, but it wasn't announced until at least mid-2011. And I get the impression that's how it seems in execution, too, although I've not yet set foot on Ilum: like it's something tacked-on late.

So that's where I think the problems really lie. I mean, yes, there are faction related problems with warzones too. People having to play huttball all day because there's no republic on, but it's world PvP that's causing most of the issues I hear people blaring about. That's where the majority of the exploiting has been done, as well.

That's what I'm wishing they'd just left out. I think the warzones are fun.

[Pants]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

Actually world-PvP, which is what I'm talking about when I bitch about PvP, wasn't in there from the beginning. I'm sure they've been working on it for a while, but it wasn't announced until at least mid-2011. And I get the impression that's how it seems in execution, too, although I've not yet set foot on Ilum: like it's something tacked-on late.

So that's where I think the problems really lie. I mean, yes, there are faction related problems with warzones too. People having to play huttball all day because there's no republic on, but it's world PvP that's causing most of the issues I hear people blaring about. That's where the majority of the exploiting has been done, as well.

That's what I'm wishing they'd just left out. I think the warzones are fun.

Ahhh, I thought you wanted there to be no PvP at all. It's really easy to stop the exploits that happened today though. It really was some mind boggingly idiotic design on BioWare's part. All you had to do was have a base on the edge of the planet that is so heavily defended, it's simply impossible to overtake it (have like 4 turrets doing 20k AOE damage each). You can still make the planet something one side can take over completely, but you have to have safe entry/exit points for both factions where an army can land and gather or use it to GTFO of dodge.

[keg in kc]

I got bored at work and braved the forums and was shocked to discover maybe the best in-the-midst-of-patch-day-rage post I've ever seen:

I've been playing multiplayer games since the 1970's. Nothing ever works right the first time they patch it- except in the rare and happy case. It's always the same, too. I've seen the complaints bandied about today on the forum for every MMO I ever played. I've seen it on the mailing lists for MUDs and MUSH games. I've seen it on the snail-mail digest of play-by-mail games. I've heard people say it verbally in my physical presence about a game we played which didn't have any player-to-player communication because it was 1979.

New content breaks things. Developers will always be accused of not listening. Game design staff will always be told they should fix bugs before releasing new content, but at the same time will be told they're idiots for delaying new content.

Some users will never be happy. They cannot be pleased; it is an impossibility to do so. A good game company will simply listen to them, nod their heads and smile, and carry on.

Now, the rest of us who understand that stuff happens will chuckle, pick up the mouse and adapt to the circumstances and play for as long as the game continues to deliver entertaiment commensurate with its price.

And of course I totally forgot to take down the dude's name or the link, and I'm not going back in there, but whoever said that's exactly right

[keg in kc]

Oh, I forgot what I originally came in here to post. They're apparently hotfixing Ilum in the morning. I have no idea what that will mean, since I haven't actually been in the game for anything but crafting today, but here's what they say:

Update on Ilum Open World PvP issues | Today , 06:46 PM

Hello everyone; I wanted to update you on the issues we’ve been seeing today on the live servers, specifically within the Open World PvP area on Ilum. We’re aware that on some servers, either Republic or Empire groups have been capturing the Ilum control points, entering the enemy’s base and ‘camping’ the medcenters, preventing the opposite faction from leaving their base to recapture control points. This is not a fair or balanced gameplay experience and can also severely affect client performance, so we’re taking steps to address this.

Our intended design for Ilum Open World PvP is that players are instantly killed when entering the enemy’s base safe area, just like in Warzones, and that the defending faction can take taxis to other points within the zone. In Game Update 1.1, this is not working as intended. We have found the issue preventing this from happening under server load and will be publishing an Emergency Patch to address the issue. We’re aiming to have this patch published early tomorrow morning (January 19th, 5 AM US CST).

In addition to these changes, we’ll be reducing the population cap on Ilum. This should help increase performance by requiring your client to render fewer characters on-screen at once.

Regarding Valor gains, with the 1.1 update, players now receive a base reward of 20 Valor per unique enemy player defeated in a short time, and this base reward is modified by the number of objectives that the player’s faction owns. The gains are rate limited per player killed, encouraging players to attack unique players, not to pursue vendettas. The Valor gains players can see over time will vary greatly depending on the activity level in the zone. This is expected.

To dispel a couple of rumors that have been seen today – there is no Valor gain from destroying turrets within enemy bases, and none from killing NPCs.

We encourage players to avoid Ilum until our patch is deployed. As a temporary measure we will be disabling taxi services which would normally take players into the Open World PvP area. However, players will still be able to taxi out of the area.

We will continue to monitor Ilum across all servers and will make further changes to gameplay if required. We welcome your feedback here on the Forums, but please ensure your feedback is constructive and specific. Feedback based on rumor does not help us isolate potential issues.

Gabe Amatangelo
Principal Lead PvP, Flashpoints and Operations Designer

Update: Please see Associate Community Manager Joveth Gonzalez's update below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JovethGonzalez
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to be clear and let you all know that we’re definitely aware of individuals who took extreme advantage of this situation and we will be carefully evaluating and taking action as necessary.

[Gravedigger]

On my Jedi Consular I got to 32 and I found the beginning of the story was fun, interesting more so by the newness of the game and the abilities, but Tatooine and Alderaan were... not good. Not to mention the Consular story is all about go to a planet and cure a master jedi of an illness. You fight them, absorb their darkness, and get told how weak you're looking. Finally when you do get to my level you get to confront the "mastermind" behind it all and he's a pushover #1, and #2 its way too repetitive. I mean dragging on the same thing over the stretch of roughly 5 or so planets and 30 levels is agonizing at some parts. I enjoy my character, but I wonder if I wouldn't have enjoyed another story arch or class better.

[Pants]

I think we have been spoiled by BioWare with their single player stories where your choices have consequences. In those games, you feel like you're the central piece and the fate of the world hangs in the balance depending on what actions you take. In TOR, the JK story is "Hey, bad guy's doing this and that, go kill him." And when you do face a choice (like killing someone or saving them) the only consequence is you getting a letter in the mail later on updating you on the status of the person's new life. Way to immerse me, BioWare.

Of course we are talking about an MMO, so I'm not going to sit here and expect a masterpiece on the level of KotOR or ME (or even Dragon Age). The story is not very engaging, but it's approaching an infinite limit of awesomesauce when you compare it to other MMOs.