Chiefs Put Dorsey's Head On The Chopping Block - Page 6

Direckshun · 09-09-2014, 11:02 AM

It is very, very early in John Dorsey's tenure here, but unless the talent he's acquired magically turns it around by midpoint of the season, I believe we should be shopping for a new GM by the end of the season.

Now, this is a big deal (I would like to think), coming from me. I was among the last defenders on this site of Scott Pioli, and I still think his drafting record here was strong. I believe in the process, in giving GMs extreme leeway and time in shuffling the roster and building a team full of the kind of guys we want.

But Dorsey came in with a plum opportunity. He had the core of a team already built for him (minus the one critical position), the #1 pick in the draft, and a ridiculous amount of free agency cap room to spend, spend, spend.

With these incredible gifts given to him, gifts that any new GM would kill for (rather than the shit sandwich a new GM would get in 2015...), Dorsey took the absolute worst path.

He sacrificed the future of the franchise for a quick playoff run, completely overpaying in offseason talent, hamstringing our budget for 2014 and 2015 so that we let a full quarter of our team's starters walk, including two Pro Bowlers, with zero ability to replace any of the departing talent effectively (with the sole exception of replacing Kendrick Lewis with Husain Abdullah, but even that was a Plan B after Mr. Glass Commings is out for another year).

We were unable to retain Brandon Albert, Brandon Flowers, Ryan Succop, Tyson Jackson, Dexter McCulster, Jon Asamoah and Geoff Schwartz because we had to have Mike DeVito, Chase Daniel, Dunta Robinson, Sean Smith, Donnie Avery, and Anthony Fasano. That is a complete loss on every level, and again, it happened because Dorsey acted like a teenager after receiving his first paycheck rather than the patient, methodical personnel guru he was alleged to be.

The Alex Smith trade was defensible on its own terms, I believe. (We overpayed with the two 2nds, but we overpayed for Bowe and Colquitt, and both of those were defensible as well, as the team was seriously ****ed without the player in question.) But coupled with the Chase Daniel acquisition and this team's continued chickenshit behavior regarding the QB position in the draft, and it once again showed a complete lack of understanding of what it takes to win in a league being skewed further and further away from the Alex Smiths and Matt Cassels of the world. In a league that's continually changing, Dorsey, Reid and Alex Smith are keeping the team stagnant.

Well, less than stagnant, really. The biggest crime of the young John Dorsey era has been the drafting, which has been horrific. It's every bit as obsessed with 40 times and measurables and ignorant of on field performance as the Al Davis regime used to be. We burned the #1 overall pick on a likely bust at tackle. We burned our first this year on a passrusher that isn't helping us win. We burned our third this year on a corner that was worse than Vince Agnew this preseason. And none of our low-round picks are working out, up to and including our UDFAs, where GMs need to distinguish themselves. It's insane to think that Scott Pioli had a better record with UDFAs, which is saying something considering that Pioli only hit on one his entire time here.

I do a ton of mock drafts throughout the year, most of them terrible, but all of them viscerally enjoyable for me to postulate. It's lost a lot of its luster this year, even as we are entering a year with 11 draft picks, because projecting the projects and boom/likely-bust players that Dorsey falls in love with makes the exercise depressing. We end up with a super-young team full of talent that can't see the field, and likely rarely ever will.

I'm willing to change my tune, as I always am, if some of this plan looks to be solid for the future, and not just for the present, by the middle of the season. But it would have to be a dramatic shift for me to feel that way.

That said, we can still end up in a good position here. The Alex Smith contract, which ironically is the best contract Dorsey has signed here, makes Smith expendable if a new GM is brought in at the end of the year. If Andy Reid still wants Alex Smith after a 4-12 season, fire him too. If Andy Reid can't get along with the new GM, fire him. If Andy Reid can't call a winning gameplan in 2015, fire him.

This front office refused to utilize their patience when constructing this roster. In the process, they've lost mine.

jd1020 · 09-09-2014, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

You think that 4.6 mil this year, 15.6 mil next year, and 17.8 mil in 2016 after which we could release him and save money is paying too much for Smith?

Let me guess you think the 4.6 mil this year is too much.

Guy is going to make elite money over the first 3 years of his contract while playing at the level of a top 20 QB his entire career.

Not overpaid /CR

DaWolf · 09-09-2014, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020

But Pioli was actually decent with the money side of the operation, Dorsey is just a complete moron. He has yet to sign anyone to a contract where you can sit back and say "well that makes sense!"

You mean like giving Stanford Routt a 3 year, 18 million deal and then waiving him halfway through season one? You mean like overpaying Brandon Flowers? You mean like overdrafting Tyson Jackson, a non-playmaker, at No 3 and essentially handing him a $30 mil guarantee? You mean like giving Matt Cassel a $60 million contract?

Pioli was not great with money. He actually sucked at money. He was lucky that he signed a couple of guys who wanted to be here to team friendly deals, one of which was Charles, who re-upped last month with another team friendly deal. His best move may have been not overpaying Carr...

jd1020 · 09-09-2014, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphojunkie

Alex Smith's contract is not preventing the Chiefs from making roster moves nor have they shown an unwillingness to give him competition. That alone distinguishes Dorsey from Pioli.

Are you ****ing serious?

What competition does Alex have that Cassel didnt?

bigjosh · 09-09-2014, 01:18 PM

I think we all knew when they signed bowe that Albert was probably on his last leg here. He let guys walk and didn't replace them, but there's a lot of variables that go into assembling a team. I don't think we should blow it up yet. It's ludicrous really.

Players take time to reach their potential. I think the process of actually building this team has begun. Last year was a band aid year. Now we're witnessing the surgery that I'm sure Dorsey and Reid wanted to do last year but were handicapped by the owner.

DaWolf · 09-09-2014, 01:24 PM

You guys are fooling yourselves if you don't think that Reid isn't the one calling the shots here. You think Dorsey walked into Reid's office and told him that he's trading two 2nd round picks for Smith? You really think a guy who cherishes all of his draft picks and is all about building in the draft is trading two 2's for Smith?

That call was all Andy Reid. And it has handcuffed us for two drafts.

Again, I don't care what the org chart says. Andy Reid runs this show. He picked the GM. He's also running the offense on this team, so no way he doesn't pick Bowe over Albert, or pick Fisher over Joekel as all of the draft projections had Fisher being the more athletic and mobile tackle that Andy Reid likes.

The difference between Pioli and Dorsey is that Pioli was calling all the shots. This here is Reid's show. On paper, they both answer directly to Clark. But in reality, you become one of the highest paid coaches in sports, you get to hire your buddy to come be the GM, you are the one with the juice...

**RealSNR** · 09-09-2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuckdaddy

Personally we should hope to have the same coach and manager for many years and let them build. All the teams that have long standing success in the league stick to the men they hire and let them work instead of turning over their staff and roster every few years. I am no lover of what has been so far with the exception of a few moves but by no means is dumping them a good idea yet. That would a Raider, Brown or Jax type move. This is the sacrifice season that normally would have been done in year one. Money and all our picks should make a large difference in 2015. Just so its not a shock. Hali will be dumped to pay Houston.

Let them assemble their roster.

I would have NO PROBLEM at all with a sacrifice season if it there was a direction that I could tell the team was going in.

Under Herm when the purposeful rebuild started, it was bad, but I could TELL it was a sacrifice season. We cut and traded away our aging players, including our veteran starting QB of the past 6 years.

Under Dorsey, he has a weird way of going about a "sacrifice season." Instead of cutting loose his QB, he extends him. He keeps aboard guys like Fasano, Daniel, DeVito, and Avery, bringing our team right up to the cap limit with largely shit on board. And how did we get that close to the cap? Because he went out the year before and spent like a moron on a ****ing 2-12 team.

I could have handled last year being another losing year, provided I saw direction in the moves. As such, there's nothing like that going on. We're going to have a deficiency this year as well as next year when we have to cut and let walk another zillion players, all while paying out the ass for overpriced extensions because Dorsey negotiates contracts like a flaming reerun.

I'd pay money to have the Herm years back. At least then there was hope for a foundation-building personnel strategy. What we've got going on now is just throwing shit at the canvas and connecting the poop stains with the magic marker known as scrap heap acquisitions to make a work of art that belongs in a goddamn monkey exhibit

Chief Roundup · 09-09-2014, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020

Guy is going to make elite money over the first 3 years of his contract while playing at the level of a top 20 QB his entire career.

Not overpaid /CR

$12 mil average over the first three years is not elite money.

**Ming the Merciless** · 09-09-2014, 01:28 PM

Nah....we probably have to let them use this butt load of draft picks then give them 3 years to see how they pan out

He is fired in 2016 or 2017 if we havent won a playoff game IMO

Chief Roundup · 09-09-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

You mean like giving Stanford Routt a 3 year, 18 million deal and then waiving him halfway through season one? You mean like overpaying Brandon Flowers? You mean like overdrafting Tyson Jackson, a non-playmaker, at No 3 and essentially handing him a $30 mil guarantee? You mean like giving Matt Cassel a $60 million contract?

Pioli was not great with money. He actually sucked at money. He was lucky that he signed a couple of guys who wanted to be here to team friendly deals, one of which was Charles, who re-upped last month with another team friendly deal. His best move may have been not overpaying Carr...

jd1020 · 09-09-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

$12 mil average over the first three years is not elite money.

He's making a lot more than $36 million over 3 years, idiot.

**New World Order** · 09-09-2014, 01:29 PM

Yet everyone flamed me when I posted the John "The Jackass" Dorsey thread. Many should have seen he was an idiot way before the season started.

**RealSNR** · 09-09-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

You guys are fooling yourselves if you don't think that Reid isn't the one calling the shots here. You think Dorsey walked into Reid's office and told him that he's trading two 2nd round picks for Smith? You really think a guy who cherishes all of his draft picks and is all about building in the draft is trading two 2's for Smith?

Who says Dorsey cherishes his draft picks?

If he really cherished his draft picks, he wouldn't have announced the Alex Smith deal so soon. Remember, it was announced the DAY after the 2013 combine. Dorsey would have played hardball for awhile to get the price down if he really cherished all his draft picks.

Instead he spent draft stock like he was at a restaurant and gave an extra-nice tip to Trent Baalke for excellent service.

Direckshun · 09-09-2014, 01:30 PM

As SNR essentially just argued, it's important to remember the key difference between Pioli and Dorsey.

Pioli inherited a dumpster fire, and fails to build much of anything on top of it by hamstringing his personnel acquisitions with a terrible QB and godawful coaching.

Dorsey inherited a mostly good roster except at the one position that counts, and has systematically dismantled it for no conceivable gain.

**Ming the Merciless** · 09-09-2014, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR

I would have NO PROBLEM at all with a sacrifice season if it there was a direction that I could tell the team was going in.

Exactly

This whole thing wouldve been so much easier to swallow if they didnt bullshit with the whole 'win now' garbage from '13 and this '14....

We can take it....they made it worse by fooling the homers and casual fans into thinking we had a chance to do shit last season or this season..

I mean I guess its subtle and minor...And I dont expect them to say 'hey the team is a mess right now, and we arent gonna win as much as you think'.....But instead of 'win now' how about saying....."you know what guys, we do want to win ballgames but the most important thing is building a franchise long term...and if that means losing a little more for the 1st couple years instead of wasting money and draft picks on short term issues...then so be it"

I also don't get why we don't have a solid project QB, unless Murray is it...but I have a feeling if he fell to the 5th round that he probably is not the guy.

Part of me is honestly scared they REALLY believed the win now hype...but how could they...?

Chief Roundup · 09-09-2014, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020

He's making a lot more than $36 million over 3 years, idiot.

http://overthecap.com/player/alex-smith/784/

Not according to this. You ****ing jackass.

09-09-2014, 11:02 AM
Direckshun __ Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Springpatch Casino cash: $4393447	Put Dorsey's Head On The Chopping Block It is very, very early in John Dorsey's tenure here, but unless the talent he's acquired magically turns it around by midpoint of the season, I believe we should be shopping for a new GM by the end of the season. Now, this is a big deal (I would like to think), coming from me. I was among the last defenders on this site of Scott Pioli, and I still think his drafting record here was strong. I believe in the process, in giving GMs extreme leeway and time in shuffling the roster and building a team full of the kind of guys we want. But Dorsey came in with a plum opportunity. He had the core of a team already built for him (minus the one critical position), the #1 pick in the draft, and a ridiculous amount of free agency cap room to spend, spend, spend. With these incredible gifts given to him, gifts that any new GM would kill for (rather than the shit sandwich a new GM would get in 2015...), Dorsey took the absolute worst path. He sacrificed the future of the franchise for a quick playoff run, completely overpaying in offseason talent, hamstringing our budget for 2014 and 2015 so that we let a full quarter of our team's starters walk, including two Pro Bowlers, with zero ability to replace any of the departing talent effectively (with the sole exception of replacing Kendrick Lewis with Husain Abdullah, but even that was a Plan B after Mr. Glass Commings is out for another year). We were unable to retain Brandon Albert, Brandon Flowers, Ryan Succop, Tyson Jackson, Dexter McCulster, Jon Asamoah and Geoff Schwartz because we had to have Mike DeVito, Chase Daniel, Dunta Robinson, Sean Smith, Donnie Avery, and Anthony Fasano. That is a complete loss on every level, and again, it happened because Dorsey acted like a teenager after receiving his first paycheck rather than the patient, methodical personnel guru he was alleged to be. The Alex Smith trade was defensible on its own terms, I believe. (We overpayed with the two 2nds, but we overpayed for Bowe and Colquitt, and both of those were defensible as well, as the team was seriously ****ed without the player in question.) But coupled with the Chase Daniel acquisition and this team's continued chickenshit behavior regarding the QB position in the draft, and it once again showed a complete lack of understanding of what it takes to win in a league being skewed further and further away from the Alex Smiths and Matt Cassels of the world. In a league that's continually changing, Dorsey, Reid and Alex Smith are keeping the team stagnant. Well, less than stagnant, really. The biggest crime of the young John Dorsey era has been the drafting, which has been horrific. It's every bit as obsessed with 40 times and measurables and ignorant of on field performance as the Al Davis regime used to be. We burned the #1 overall pick on a likely bust at tackle. We burned our first this year on a passrusher that isn't helping us win. We burned our third this year on a corner that was worse than Vince Agnew this preseason. And none of our low-round picks are working out, up to and including our UDFAs, where GMs need to distinguish themselves. It's insane to think that Scott Pioli had a better record with UDFAs, which is saying something considering that Pioli only hit on one his entire time here. I do a ton of mock drafts throughout the year, most of them terrible, but all of them viscerally enjoyable for me to postulate. It's lost a lot of its luster this year, even as we are entering a year with 11 draft picks, because projecting the projects and boom/likely-bust players that Dorsey falls in love with makes the exercise depressing. We end up with a super-young team full of talent that can't see the field, and likely rarely ever will. I'm willing to change my tune, as I always am, if some of this plan looks to be solid for the future, and not just for the present, by the middle of the season. But it would have to be a dramatic shift for me to feel that way. That said, we can still end up in a good position here. The Alex Smith contract, which ironically is the best contract Dorsey has signed here, makes Smith expendable if a new GM is brought in at the end of the year. If Andy Reid still wants Alex Smith after a 4-12 season, fire him too. If Andy Reid can't get along with the new GM, fire him. If Andy Reid can't call a winning gameplan in 2015, fire him. This front office refused to utilize their patience when constructing this roster. In the process, they've lost mine.
Posts: 59,261

09-09-2014, 01:18 PM	#79
bigjosh Mahomosapien Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: the great white north Casino cash: $1704902	I think we all knew when they signed bowe that Albert was probably on his last leg here. He let guys walk and didn't replace them, but there's a lot of variables that go into assembling a team. I don't think we should blow it up yet. It's ludicrous really. Players take time to reach their potential. I think the process of actually building this team has begun. Last year was a band aid year. Now we're witnessing the surgery that I'm sure Dorsey and Reid wanted to do last year but were handicapped by the owner.
Posts: 6,016

09-09-2014, 01:24 PM	#80
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	You guys are fooling yourselves if you don't think that Reid isn't the one calling the shots here. You think Dorsey walked into Reid's office and told him that he's trading two 2nd round picks for Smith? You really think a guy who cherishes all of his draft picks and is all about building in the draft is trading two 2's for Smith? That call was all Andy Reid. And it has handcuffed us for two drafts. Again, I don't care what the org chart says. Andy Reid runs this show. He picked the GM. He's also running the offense on this team, so no way he doesn't pick Bowe over Albert, or pick Fisher over Joekel as all of the draft projections had Fisher being the more athletic and mobile tackle that Andy Reid likes. The difference between Pioli and Dorsey is that Pioli was calling all the shots. This here is Reid's show. On paper, they both answer directly to Clark. But in reality, you become one of the highest paid coaches in sports, you get to hire your buddy to come be the GM, you are the one with the juice...
Posts: 6,798

09-09-2014, 01:28 PM	#83
Ming the Merciless Emporer of Mongo Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Milky Way Casino cash: $2967556	Nah....we probably have to let them use this butt load of draft picks then give them 3 years to see how they pan out He is fired in 2016 or 2017 if we havent won a playoff game IMO __________________ ---- 2018 Adopt-A-Chief : Chris Conley 2017 Adopt-A-Chief : FRANK ZOMBO Click here-->*The Holy Chiefsplanet Lexicon **
Posts: 44,482

09-09-2014, 01:29 PM	#86
New World Order Choco Favre Join Date: Jul 2012 Casino cash: $2694765	Yet everyone flamed me when I posted the John "The Jackass" Dorsey thread. Many should have seen he was an idiot way before the season started.
Posts: 28,969

09-09-2014, 01:30 PM	#88
Direckshun __ Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Springpatch Casino cash: $4393447	As SNR essentially just argued, it's important to remember the key difference between Pioli and Dorsey. Pioli inherited a dumpster fire, and fails to build much of anything on top of it by hamstringing his personnel acquisitions with a terrible QB and godawful coaching. Dorsey inherited a mostly good roster except at the one position that counts, and has systematically dismantled it for no conceivable gain.
Posts: 59,261