Chiefs The Film Room aka formerdb: "Chiefs: Quarterbacks and the Coaching" - Page 5

rico · 10-30-2012, 05:49 PM

http://echointhehead.blogspot.com/20....html?spref=tw

Quarterbacking:

When looking at a QB I strip away the Heisman's, MVP's, Super Bowl's...and just look at how they throw a ball. Natural talent like Peyton Manning is scattered throughout the NFL. There is nothing special about how he throws a football from point A to B...a lot of better balls came out of Jamarcus Russell's arm.

If you just watched Peyton Manning it's is not a pretty site. But there isn't a more efficient player on the move than Peyton Manning. The big key with Manning is he can get to his drops quicker than any player in the NFL even at his size. Meaning he has the ability to throw before a defense can diagnose it's a pass.

Sometimes something as simple as that can turn a rather above average QB into a great one. The elite QB's in the NFL aren't the elite talents in Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning...rather they are the most efficient passers in the NFL. All 4 QB's are versatile enough passers to run the style of offense they run, not based on natural talent rather touch/timing.

If you go out to the yard and toss a football from 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards each throw would be different. The mechanics of those throws will be slightly different. The amount of force will be different as well. Scouting a QB is simply identifying how a QB accounts for it with ability and mechanics.

When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL. Flacco can go the furthest downfield without breaking his mechanics. From 30-40 yards Flacco can still manipulate good touch on the football...personally that control at that distance is something I appreciate over any other passer. Every QB breaks mechanics to launch a ball. It's typically where that break happens is what determines functional arm strength to me.

Stanzi:

I don't love the natural talent but I love the technique. His balance/arm efficiency/functional strength/release point all in my opinion are near elite. Stanzi has the tools to be one of the more efficient passers in the league. The issue with Stanzi goes back to that "break" in mechanics when passing.

Stanzi's mind as a QB doesn't match his skill set. Stanzi plays a power style with a efficient skill set. For me I still love the prospect but at this point his style of play will never allow him to tap into what he can actually excel in. As much as I love Stanzi as an intermediate passer, he is too aggressive and often break excellent mechanics in favor of more aggressive reads.

If anyone ask me who I wanted to start for the Chiefs it was Ricky Stanzi. I wasn't certain he was a better QB than Cassel or Quinn, but I was certain he was a more talented passer. Ultimately the amount of "passes" a QB has determines the versatility of the passing game. A team can have Jerry Rice but if the Quarterback can't beat a cover 3 then it doesn't matter...this team is capped on the amount of routes they can call due to the QB.

Daboll/Cassel:

In the preseason I stressed that Cassel looked better because of the passes he was throwing. Stanzi utilized a completely different set of reads. Stanzi's reads had a higher degree of difficulty. To me every completion or attempt isn't equal. How a QB missed the post on a cover 3 is a lot more intriguing than the QB hitting a slant vs. cover 2.

That's the key issue of the season, the reason for the collapse. Daboll and Crennel picked the wrong QB's to run this offense. They picked the guys that were attempting and hitting the easy reads in the preseason over the guy that was missing on the more aggressive reads. It's basic...if you're playbook has a bunch of deep routes, then get the QB that throws those routes.

What's happening is simple. Because we can't threaten deep teams just bracket underneath. It's a simple adjustment that the Chiefs don't have the ability to get teams out of. In my opinion Quinn nor Cassel have that ability. But that shouldn't be what is derailing this team. Long ago Daboll had to figure his player out.

Daboll was applauding Cassel with hitting Baldwin on a fade vs. cover 1...hitting the TE on a skinny post vs. cover 2. Essentially every team has taken those routes away from this offense. It comes as no shock that we aren't having success passing. The timing is not there because Cassel wasn't forced to work on the timing throughout preseason. Felt nervous that we had a coaching staff that lacked vision.

This offenses talents is suited for movement. Albert, Asomoah, Lilja, Allen, Charles, Moeaki are all suited to play in space...with a few of them being among the more athletic players at their positions in the NFL. Players that are suited to play horizontal are being forced to play vertically. Most are making the transition but our Cassel/Quinn don't have the ability to.

What has changed schematically in Kansas City is simple. We went from a team that ran on the perimeter to a team that runs in the interior. We went from a team that threw a bunch of screens, hooks, hitches, slants to one that uses more vertical routes. For the most part every facet is transitioning to the changes outside of the Quarterback.

Final Thought

Stanzi utilizes the reads that this offense is designed to use. Theoretically those vertical routes are supposed to threaten the safety. Mathematically the threat of the pass should account for an additional defender. Depending on the range of the passing game determines the depth of the secondary. Currently the passing game can't remove a defender in the run game.

Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted. The threat of a vertical passing game removes Chargers safety Eric Weddle and the pick on the deflection doesn't happen. Currently because of Quarterback talent this offense is unable to force that adjustment making our intermediate reads a lower percentage.

Daboll has to understand that...instead of waiting for an adjustment from defenses that won't come. He is going to have to adjust if these are his options at QB. I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose, but he can't run this offense. Daboll has to figure out a way to make his QB better or he will handcuff this team to a bad marriage of natural talent and scheme.

Change has to happen...if Daboll doesn't change he has to go...if Cassel doesn't change then the scheme has to...if the scheme doesn't change then the QB has to. The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way.

10-31-2012, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Every WR outside of Bowe has sucked ass this year.

Where are the threads and posts about Wylie?

He was a 4th rounder, not a fifth. He's fast, quick and productive in school.

Where are the 5.000 posts about Wylie? WR isn't important?

Going in we had Breaston who had a nice 2011, 2 first round draft picks, and McCluster ahead of Wylie. What was your question again?

Silock · 10-31-2012, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Every WR outside of Bowe has sucked ass this year.

Where are the threads and posts about Wylie?

He was a 4th rounder, not a fifth. He's fast, quick and productive in school.

Where are the 5.000 posts about Wylie? WR isn't important?

I think the lack of clamor for Wylie is due to the fact that he hasn't been healthy all year. IIRC, he got injured in training camp and hasn't been active for a single game yet.

**Rausch** · 10-31-2012, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silock

I think the lack of clamor for Wylie is due to the fact that he hasn't been healthy all year. IIRC, he got injured in training camp and hasn't been active for a single game yet.

This.

I had high expectations.

Oh well...

Woodchuck · 10-31-2012, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silock

I think the lack of clamor for Wylie is due to the fact that he hasn't been healthy all year. IIRC, he got injured in training camp and hasn't been active for a single game yet.

That dude was a drop machine at Fresno State and he was a drop machine at training camp. He's not going to make it in the NFL imo.

**Dave Lane** · 10-31-2012, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

Young was an extremely intelligent guy that looked at the game like a chess match.

Vick is a ****ing moron with the physical gifts of an olympian...

I was gonna call you a moran for saying Young was intelligent. Then I saw the Steve vs Vince and I said ahhhhhh carry on...

jspchief · 10-31-2012, 06:35 AM

I've always wondered if the coaches get on Cassel for his refusal to stretch the field. Or do they encourage his style of play because that's his ceiling? The fail of the coaching is on level with the QB play.

I also find the comments on Stanzi interesting. If you watched him in preseason, nearly every throw was deep. His reaction to pressure was to bomb it.

I think this guys comments are spot on. The QBs on this team are rudderless. They just go out and do what they are most comfortable with. They're either not being developed or are not taking to the efforts.

This isn't to be taken as defense of the players. It's just a glaring example of how bad the coaching on this team is. With every week I'm more convinced we have the worst staff in the league.

jspchief · 10-31-2012, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsponge Chuckpants

That dude was a drop machine at Fresno State and he was a drop machine at training camp. He's not going to make it in the NFL imo.

Yeah the two impressions I got from the guy were "fast as hell" and "stone hands".

TEX · 10-31-2012, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guru

And it isn't like there is anything to lose going with Stanzi. I'm sure he will be just as bad but what the hell.

He will be worse.

Ace Gunner · 10-31-2012, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silock

You missed the point. He wasn't saying anything to relate Matt Cassel's ability with Steve Young's. He was saying that Matt Cassel needs to be forced to do things differently in order to run this offense successfully and that the coaches aren't forcing him to do that. He isn't getting the reps at what makes this offense successful and is just relying on what he is comfortable with in the easy passes.

Perhaps. I don't see it this way. When Haley was here, Cassel was "forced" to make plays we do not see him make this season. Hence Cassel's red zone efficiency during the Haley years.

When Young started out with the 9ers, he would throw wobbly passes to receivers, unsure of his reads, assignments and insecure with his passing mechanics. But, he did what he needed in order to win games -- he ran it when plays where broken from waiting too long or when he saw daylight.

But my point is, he won. He did what he needed to win. It was ugly, whimpy and generally dumb playing on his part. That is still miles ahead of Cassel & Vick because these guys do not engineer wins in any way. Young, in his worst performances, put the team on his shoulders and won. When Matty C wins, it isn't like this. Same with Vick.

They do win, but when this happens, it's because each of these QB's just happened to get some passes off that were on target, allowing their receivers to go full tilt and win. Or, in Cassel's case, Jamaal Charles was on fire that day and combined with a few good, yet rare passes, they win in offensive fashion. See the Seattle game 2010.

**DaKCMan AP** · 10-31-2012, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rico

When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL.

**Rausch** · 10-31-2012, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaKCMan AP

I think that's a civil way of saying he folds under pressure...

**RealSNR** · 10-31-2012, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEX

He will be worse.

I actually seriously doubt that.

The entire team feels trapped and stuck in a giant hole with no way out when Cassel plays. A REAL change at QB might cause them to actually play better football (thanks RAC, I can never use this phrase again).

Once the Chiefs rack up a 2 game lead for the #1 overall pick, they should go to Stanzi. Odds are they won't need that 2 game lead and will just continue to lose, but better to be safe than sorry.

**Easy 6** · 10-31-2012, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspchief

I've always wondered if the coaches get on Cassel for his refusal to stretch the field. Or do they encourage his style of play because that's his ceiling?

Not to defend the coaching in any way at all, but i bet even they know that cassel simply cant hit some of the more difficult throws with any consistency, no matter how many times they have him try it in practice.

They have to play to his weaknesses, or it'd be a five pick fest every single game.

milkman · 10-31-2012, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott free

Not to defend the coaching in any way at all, but i bet even they know that cassel simply cant hit some of the more difficult throws with any consistency, no matter how many times they have him try it in practice.

They have to play to his weaknesses, or it'd be a five pick fest every single game.

If you were trying to defend the coaching, you would have failed.

If they he can't hit the more difficult throws, and they have to play to his weaknesses, then they have to adjust their offensive philosophy to maximize his strengths.

They haven't done that.

formerDB really has taken a simple concept and complicated it.

TEX · 10-31-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR

I actually seriously doubt that.

The entire team feels trapped and stuck in a giant hole with no way out when Cassel plays. A REAL change at QB might cause them to actually play better football (thanks RAC, I can never use this phrase again).

Once the Chiefs rack up a 2 game lead for the #1 overall pick, they should go to Stanzi. Odds are they won't need that 2 game lead and will just continue to lose, but better to be safe than sorry.

Oh - Now I see the logic.

10-30-2012, 05:49 PM
rico ON CP YOU’RE SOMEBODY’S BITCH! Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Da SEI Casino cash: $4584809	The Film Room aka formerdb: "Chiefs: Quarterbacks and the Coaching" http://echointhehead.blogspot.com/20....html?spref=tw Quarterbacking: When looking at a QB I strip away the Heisman's, MVP's, Super Bowl's...and just look at how they throw a ball. Natural talent like Peyton Manning is scattered throughout the NFL. There is nothing special about how he throws a football from point A to B...a lot of better balls came out of Jamarcus Russell's arm. If you just watched Peyton Manning it's is not a pretty site. But there isn't a more efficient player on the move than Peyton Manning. The big key with Manning is he can get to his drops quicker than any player in the NFL even at his size. Meaning he has the ability to throw before a defense can diagnose it's a pass. Sometimes something as simple as that can turn a rather above average QB into a great one. The elite QB's in the NFL aren't the elite talents in Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning...rather they are the most efficient passers in the NFL. All 4 QB's are versatile enough passers to run the style of offense they run, not based on natural talent rather touch/timing. If you go out to the yard and toss a football from 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards each throw would be different. The mechanics of those throws will be slightly different. The amount of force will be different as well. Scouting a QB is simply identifying how a QB accounts for it with ability and mechanics. When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL. Flacco can go the furthest downfield without breaking his mechanics. From 30-40 yards Flacco can still manipulate good touch on the football...personally that control at that distance is something I appreciate over any other passer. Every QB breaks mechanics to launch a ball. It's typically where that break happens is what determines functional arm strength to me. Stanzi: I don't love the natural talent but I love the technique. His balance/arm efficiency/functional strength/release point all in my opinion are near elite. Stanzi has the tools to be one of the more efficient passers in the league. The issue with Stanzi goes back to that "break" in mechanics when passing. Stanzi's mind as a QB doesn't match his skill set. Stanzi plays a power style with a efficient skill set. For me I still love the prospect but at this point his style of play will never allow him to tap into what he can actually excel in. As much as I love Stanzi as an intermediate passer, he is too aggressive and often break excellent mechanics in favor of more aggressive reads. If anyone ask me who I wanted to start for the Chiefs it was Ricky Stanzi. I wasn't certain he was a better QB than Cassel or Quinn, but I was certain he was a more talented passer. Ultimately the amount of "passes" a QB has determines the versatility of the passing game. A team can have Jerry Rice but if the Quarterback can't beat a cover 3 then it doesn't matter...this team is capped on the amount of routes they can call due to the QB. Daboll/Cassel: In the preseason I stressed that Cassel looked better because of the passes he was throwing. Stanzi utilized a completely different set of reads. Stanzi's reads had a higher degree of difficulty. To me every completion or attempt isn't equal. How a QB missed the post on a cover 3 is a lot more intriguing than the QB hitting a slant vs. cover 2. That's the key issue of the season, the reason for the collapse. Daboll and Crennel picked the wrong QB's to run this offense. They picked the guys that were attempting and hitting the easy reads in the preseason over the guy that was missing on the more aggressive reads. It's basic...if you're playbook has a bunch of deep routes, then get the QB that throws those routes. What's happening is simple. Because we can't threaten deep teams just bracket underneath. It's a simple adjustment that the Chiefs don't have the ability to get teams out of. In my opinion Quinn nor Cassel have that ability. But that shouldn't be what is derailing this team. Long ago Daboll had to figure his player out. Daboll was applauding Cassel with hitting Baldwin on a fade vs. cover 1...hitting the TE on a skinny post vs. cover 2. Essentially every team has taken those routes away from this offense. It comes as no shock that we aren't having success passing. The timing is not there because Cassel wasn't forced to work on the timing throughout preseason. Felt nervous that we had a coaching staff that lacked vision. This offenses talents is suited for movement. Albert, Asomoah, Lilja, Allen, Charles, Moeaki are all suited to play in space...with a few of them being among the more athletic players at their positions in the NFL. Players that are suited to play horizontal are being forced to play vertically. Most are making the transition but our Cassel/Quinn don't have the ability to. What has changed schematically in Kansas City is simple. We went from a team that ran on the perimeter to a team that runs in the interior. We went from a team that threw a bunch of screens, hooks, hitches, slants to one that uses more vertical routes. For the most part every facet is transitioning to the changes outside of the Quarterback. Final Thought Stanzi utilizes the reads that this offense is designed to use. Theoretically those vertical routes are supposed to threaten the safety. Mathematically the threat of the pass should account for an additional defender. Depending on the range of the passing game determines the depth of the secondary. Currently the passing game can't remove a defender in the run game. Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted. The threat of a vertical passing game removes Chargers safety Eric Weddle and the pick on the deflection doesn't happen. Currently because of Quarterback talent this offense is unable to force that adjustment making our intermediate reads a lower percentage. Daboll has to understand that...instead of waiting for an adjustment from defenses that won't come. He is going to have to adjust if these are his options at QB. I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose, but he can't run this offense. Daboll has to figure out a way to make his QB better or he will handcuff this team to a bad marriage of natural talent and scheme. Change has to happen...if Daboll doesn't change he has to go...if Cassel doesn't change then the scheme has to...if the scheme doesn't change then the QB has to. The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way.
Posts: 13,257

10-31-2012, 06:35 AM	#66
jspchief BAMF Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Your Face Casino cash: $9998710	I've always wondered if the coaches get on Cassel for his refusal to stretch the field. Or do they encourage his style of play because that's his ceiling? The fail of the coaching is on level with the QB play. I also find the comments on Stanzi interesting. If you watched him in preseason, nearly every throw was deep. His reaction to pressure was to bomb it. I think this guys comments are spot on. The QBs on this team are rudderless. They just go out and do what they are most comfortable with. They're either not being developed or are not taking to the efforts. This isn't to be taken as defense of the players. It's just a glaring example of how bad the coaching on this team is. With every week I'm more convinced we have the worst staff in the league. __________________ Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all.
Posts: 27,207