Game of Thrones Seasons 7-8

[keg in kc]

About to hit the 5000 post mark on the old thread, the first season 7 trailer today seems like the right time to start the final Game of Thones thread.

I'm going back to the original rules pre-2015. I don't think we need supervision or bannings. Just don't be a dick. Post anything you find online that hasn't aired yet inside of spoiler tags. That's pretty much it. I think we can all handle that...





For future us, 2015 thread is here: Link

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by Jerm

Also they made Greyworm look like a complete POS...he's the one yelling hold the lines and protect the retreat and then was just like "nah y'all got this, I'm heading to the castle"...lol wtf.

Not in my eyes. That was Greyworm basically getting his humanity back because of Missandei. He had something to live for.

Still a dick move to sacrifice everyone else though.

That whole battle plan was stupid from the ****ing beginning.

[Setsuna]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

I’ll nerd out and defend some “plot holes” for a minute...

SNIP

Re: Gendry getting tired from swinging his hammer... he’s a blacksmith and has been doing that daily for several years. He probably has better stamina than anyone else out there.

I'm sorry you missed the part where I said it was a GREAT hammer not some dinky blacksmith hammer. Also when every swing is to preserve your own life you tend to put everything into it. Also they fought for hours. Just stop. I'd conceivably believe the ones with swords would have lasted longer simply because the fact they are lighter than a huge chunk of rock attached to a stick.

Originally Posted by DaFace

You guys know how awesome we all thought last week's episode was? With all of the main characters talking about the battle? It sure was awesome to see some character arcs fulfilled because we knew that some of them were going to die in the next episode. Except not a single one of them died, despite the fact that some of them literally had 15-20 wights surrounding them that just somehow never managed to kill them.

And you know the prophecies setting up Jon as being Azor Ahai? It was never confirmed, so you could conceivably say that it was Arya all along. Except in the post-show breakdown with D&D, they basically said that they did it because they thought it would be fun.

It's just bullshit lazy writing. I had hoped the show would help me feel a sense of closure since it seems like GRRM never will finish the books. Instead, I kind of feel cheated that we're being fed this half-assed, predictable version of GOT that doesn't even feel like the books anymore.

Bleh. I'll stop ranting. I'm just really irritated at the fact that they're just going to end this thing and not even bother being true to some of the things that made the story great in the first place.

All of this.

[Chiefspants]

Originally Posted by The Franchise

That whole battle plan was stupid from the ****ing beginning.

From a tactical perspective, they've spent 4 seasons building up the WW's true weakness, which was the NK. The hope was that they could hold off the WW/Wights long enough to isolate the NK - and it worked.

Together Jon and Dany unseated the NK from the ice dragon and Dany got him 1v1 to roast him alive. Unfortunately, the plan always went in not knowing if Dragonfire could finish the job.

Jon then ran in with Longclaw, but the NK wasn't going to risk going down in a 1v1 with Jon.

The plan was designed precisely by Jon and Bran to expose the only weakness of the army. The walls of Winterfell never would have held against an undead force (walls only work when you can wholesale slaughter the enemy as they're trying to make their climb).

Now, criticisms of the execution of Arya delivering the final blow and characters surviving on plot armor are totally cool with me. I was livid when I first saw it, but have calmed down a bit on those points that since.

[Sassy Squatch]

Wipes out the fodder armies like nothing. Main characters can hold them off 1 on 10+ for hours.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Frazod

Yeah, the whole we have a strong, fortified position, so let's line up most of our troops outside it thing is a bit confusing.

I felt like they rolled about a 12 on their Tactics roll, too. But after thinking about it more ... the goal of the battle at the castle wasn’t to repel the wights and win. It was all about killing the Night King. That was a delaying tactic.

The Dothraki, the Unsullied, and those who died outside the walls... pawns that had to be sacrificed to get the king to come forward.

Think of it like the survivors of the battle at Gondor rushing the gates of Mordor. It was a distraction.

Originally Posted by DaFace

Actually, it seems pretty clear to me where the divide is here. If you look at the book-reader subreddit, you'll see that everyone's pretty much pissed. In the show-watcher subreddit, reactions are generally positive. So there's your explanation. Book readers are irritated because so many of the key points are being shit upon, but show watchers don't care about that stuff as much.

I read the books in a blink in 2007 (seriously, like one month) and I don’t agree with the criticism of the writing.

The whole point of Martin’s story is that traditional tropes and key points don’t matter.

The heroic son avenging his father with brilliant battle tactics and honor? He dies.

The wise wizard/witch knowing the future and perfectly setting a prophecy into motion? She misunderstands and is wrong about a bunch of things (still fulfills her purpose though).

The clear inheritor(s) of the prophecy not ultimately being the one(s) to slay the big bad.

Etc.

Originally Posted by The Franchise

My only beef with the episode last night.....was that I was waiting for more characters to die and they didn't.



Also.....talk about neutering an entire army (literally and figuratively). The Unsullied are ****ing worthless. All of their "training" and all they were good for was basically a wall to hold back the wights so everyone could escape?

In the history of warfare, horse soldiers were effective for a few reasons:

Shocking formations and forcing cracks and breaks in formation due to human reactions and self-preservation.

Using mobility to pick at flanks and break formations, again due to human reaction and self-preservation.

That stuff doesn’t work against a mass of undead thralls that have no self-preservation sense.

The traditional charge, shock, wheel tactics of horse warriors would simply not work against an uncaring mass of thralls.

Same thing with the Unsullied phalanx. Shield walls were great against human enemies who didn’t want to just throw themselves on the spears. Against an enormous mass of undead, it just would get slowly buried.

Originally Posted by DaFace

It didn't really even make sense in the context of the rest of the battle. The Dothraki were defeated in...what...15 seconds or so? You know, the group that is famed for its effectiveness and brutality on horseback. But then everyone else lasts over an hour?



I agree that it was a cool look and set an ominous tone, but it didn't make any sense, either tactically or in terms of the outcome.

If the tactics were to preserve as much of the army as possible, sure. Though who could have known what tactics would work and how many of the dead there were?

If tactics were to convince the NK he was winning and it was safe to sally forth to take Bran... different story.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

If the tactics were to preserve as much of the army as possible, sure. Though who could have known what tactics would work and how many of the dead there were.

Well, they could have at least gotten a better feel for it using one of their two giant flashlights before charging into the darkness.

[otherstar]

Originally Posted by DaFace

Again, watch the episode Hardhome. They fought the wights with normal weapons. It's clear that they decided to change that in the show, but that's never how it was set up in the beginning, and it's not how it works in the books at all.

I've not finished the books, so I can't speak to that.

It's a continuity error in the show, then. Since the wights far outnumber the white walkers, why bother with making all of the dragon glass weapons, embedding dragon glass on the barricades, etc. Why have Jon Snow say what he said in the clip from Season 7? Apparently the writers forgot the Hardhome episode.

What's your explanation? (show only, please)

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Setsuna

I'm sorry you missed the part where I said it was a GREAT hammer not some dinky blacksmith hammer. Also when every swing is to preserve your own life you tend to put everything into it. Also they fought for hours. Just stop. I'd conceivably believe the ones with swords would have lasted longer simply because the fact they are lighter than a huge chunk of rock attached to a stick.


All of this.

We have no actual idea of how long the actual battle took or how long those characters had to hold off.

You’re assuming it took hours. That assumes that all events shown took place sequentially and none of the scenes happened simultaneously. Faulty assumption.

[ModSocks]

Yeah, GoT went a little Hollywood on us. So what. Still rocked.

Even with plot armor that episode is better than what we'll see in most movies this year.

[kcpasco]

Did they think they would shock an army of undead to get scared and run away? Dothraki went out like chumps. The fire visual was cool though.

[Sassy Squatch]

Why was the Night King such a smug **** out of nowhere?

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by Superturtle

Why was the Night King such a smug **** out of nowhere?

He was always a smug ****.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by otherstar

I've not finished the books, so I can't speak to that.

It's a continuity error in the show, then. Since the wights far outnumber the white walkers, why bother with making all of the dragon glass weapons, embedding dragon glass on the barricades, etc. Why have Jon Snow say what he said in the clip from Season 7? Apparently the writers forgot the Hardhome episode.

What's your explanation? (show only, please)

Maybe the show implies that they go down quicker with dragonglass? Or that they'll at least stay dead?

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by Frazod

He was always a smug ****.

This.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Yeah, GoT went a little Hollywood on us. So what. Still rocked.

Even with plot armor that episode is better than what we'll see in most movies this year.

This is pretty much where I'm at. There was some stuff that I would have loved to have seen. And like I said earlier....I was looking for more main characters to die....but **** if that episode wasn't intense and crazy for the entire 80 minutes.