Chiefs Paylor: Communication, management style were factors in firing of Dorsey - Page 10

Quesadilla Joe · 03:11 PM

A lot of new information/quotes in this article...

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl...158155634.html

Spoiler!

The Chiefs have compiled a 43-21 record the last four years thanks to the work of coach Andy Reid and general manager John Dorsey, all while publicly and privately painting a picture of internal harmony and teamwork.

They managed to stay unified and on message even during tough times, like the NFL’s tampering investigation into the free-agent signing of Jeremy Maclin that led to fines and the forfeiture of draft picks.

But behind the scenes, the Chiefs’ front office did not always run smoothly under Dorsey. Team chairman Clark Hunt’s decision to fire Dorsey was fueled, in part, by concerns about his internal communication and management styles, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation who spoke to The Star on condition of anonymity.

As one of the sources said while describing how Dorsey had removed two front-office executives without much explanation: “John does stuff and doesn’t tell people why.” Another source said Dorsey’s management style “could wear on people.”

A message left with Dorsey seeking comment for this story was not immediately returned.

Dorsey’s firing was announced Thursday, the same day Reid received a contract extension. Both men had a year left on their contracts and report separately, but directly to Hunt. That structure will remain when a new GM is hired.

While sources have consistently maintained that Reid and Dorsey worked well together — “You never got the impression they were sparring,” one source told The Star — the two also had different approaches to their jobs.

While Reid has a reputation for being structured and process-oriented, Dorsey was described by those who know both men as looser.

“He goes with the flow,” one source said of Dorsey.

That style didn’t always mesh in situations outside of Dorsey’s undeniable strengths, picking and evaluating players. The other areas Dorsey oversaw were contracts and salary cap management — and the Chiefs have been in cap trouble for a while — in addition to the general, day-to-day management of the team.

“He’s not a big disciplinarian or big on chain of command,” a source said, “so people did what they wanted.”

“It’s more about his management skills,” another source added.

For instance, the typically stable Chiefs also made waves this offseason when Dorsey released director of football administration Trip MacCracken and director of pro scouting Will Lewis. Each man had been with the team for at least four years, and not only were their dismissals surprising, there weren’t many answers to be found, even inside the organization.

“Those decisions were totally John’s,” a source said. “That’s the kind of stuff he does.”

Sources also critiqued Dorsey’s management style, noting that while he was often friendly and jovial, the same tongue-in-cheek manner he used to win over most people over eventually wore on others.

“It could rub people the wrong way at times,” a source said.

Dorsey still has fans inside the Chiefs organization. They cited his passion for the game, constant availability and eye for talent as respected strengths.

“Loved working for him,” one source said. “Great dude.”

“He was always great to us …,” another source added, “You hate to see something like this happen.”

Dorsey also has a number of supporters across the league, as an overwhelming amount of league sources who dealt with him on a regular basis — approaching a dozen — told The Star.

“He was always a guy that would listen, was a pro, good to work with,” one league source said.

“One of my favorite people in 20 years in the business,” another source said. “Honest and straightforward. Man of conviction. Was shocked and sad to see the news.”

Multiple sources also called Dorsey a friend on a personal level, noting that it was not unusual for him to call just to say “hello,” even when on vacation.

“A consummate pro’s pro in negotiations,” one league source said. “Always up front and straight, and a super talent and football evaluator.”

Other league sources agreed with that notion, adding that Dorsey’s standing as an evaluator of talent remains peerless.

“He is a dyed-in-the-wool scout, loves the element of watching college players, loves breaking down film,” said Andrew Brandt, who spent 10 years as a Green Bay Packers vice president alongside Dorsey and writes for TheMMQB.com. “That always seemed like that’s what he was most happy, and most comfortable, doing.”

It’s a trait that, communication and management issues aside, many league sources believe will be difficult for the Chiefs to replace, especially on the heels of the club losing Dorsey’s talented and respected right-hand man Chris Ballard to Indianapolis five months ago. Ballard is now the Colts’ GM.

“I loved him,” one league source said of Dorsey. “Blunt, honest and a great talent evaluator. Losing him and Ballard in one offseason is insane.”

Brandt said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Chiefs prioritized talent evaluation, along with leadership and communication, with their next hire. The Chiefs are already over the projected 2018 salary cap, but there’s a widely-held belief around the league that whatever cap issues they have can be rectified in a year or two.

“We have this traditional version of an NFL GM coming from a scouting background, like John — and that’s the most popular GM model,” Brandt said. “Then there are a few coming from more of my background, which is from the financial side, about business and cap contracts. The third model is one Andy had in Philly, which is coach/GM.

“To me, the real underappreciated trait you want from a GM is leadership and communication, because the GM will be coming from one of those backgrounds and will need to communicate seamlessly with what he’s not an expert at. Teams sometimes rush to sign an expert in one area while maybe not taking into account the necessity for communication in other areas.”

**MahiMike** · 06-26-2017, 07:21 AM

So after pioli and Dorsey only lasting 1 contract each, what kind of 'talent' can we acquire now? Hell at this point, let's go Billy ball. Get a capologist accountant to run the team and let Andy and his scouts pick the players.

oldman · 06-26-2017, 07:25 AM

As CEO of the team, Clark had every right to can Dorsey for whatever reason he thought of. I still don't believe it was some petty, spur of the moment move. There has to be something unforgivable between Ballard's departure and Dorsey's. If the whole GB thing is true and JD continued to use that as leverage after Clark told him to cut it out, then he had to go. If JD ignored the cap specialist and put us in cap hell, he had to go. IF JD was banging some trophy secretary on the roof of One Arrowhead in full view of I-70, he had to go.
Clark is no dummy and he does care about winning. The argument that he's a trust fund baby that never had to work for money could be said about Lamar as well, so that mantra is just plain foolish. He hired Pioli, who was the hands-down favorite candidate, made a mistake, and then rectified it. He hired Dorsey and Reid, both top of the line guys.
While Dorsey did set us up with talent and filled holes, he overspent on some and had to cut vets to keep afloat. Maybe Dorsey let too much front office talent go. Who knows?
While I was surprised as anyone with this, there's no reason to get out the pitchfolks and torches yet.

Red Dawg · 06-26-2017, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman

As CEO of the team, Clark had every right to can Dorsey for whatever reason he thought of. I still don't believe it was some petty, spur of the moment move. There has to be something unforgivable between Ballard's departure and Dorsey's. If the whole GB thing is true and JD continued to use that as leverage after Clark told him to cut it out, then he had to go. If JD ignored the cap specialist and put us in cap hell, he had to go. IF JD was banging some trophy secretary on the roof of One Arrowhead in full view of I-70, he had to go.
Clark is no dummy and he does care about winning. The argument that he's a trust fund baby that never had to work for money could be said about Lamar as well, so that mantra is just plain foolish. He hired Pioli, who was the hands-down favorite candidate, made a mistake, and then rectified it. He hired Dorsey and Reid, both top of the line guys.
While Dorsey did set us up with talent and filled holes, he overspent on some and had to cut vets to keep afloat. Maybe Dorsey let too much front office talent go. Who knows?
While I was surprised as anyone with this, there's no reason to get out the pitchfolks and torches yet.

I can agree with this. I had almost no problem with Dorsey staying but I also don't have problem with Clark canning him either. We never have money and that kills us to improve every off season. That is Dorsey's fault but he brought us Mahomes so I wish him well.

Reerun_KC · 06-26-2017, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahiMike

So after pioli and Dorsey only lasting 1 contract each, what kind of 'talent' can we acquire now? Hell at this point, let's go Billy ball. Get a capologist accountant to run the team and let Andy and his scouts pick the players.

That is something Andy isnt good at... See last few years in Philly...

Rudderless ship is Rudderless...

**ChiefGator** · 06-26-2017, 08:11 AM

Hopefully we will eventually hear enough to get the full story. It is also quite possible Clark Hunt said he was going to put someone else in charge of contracts to fix the cap, and Dorsey didn't want to be a GM without power in contracts and without power to hire and fire coaches. Which would be somewhat understandable.

**Rausch** · 06-26-2017, 08:22 AM

Clark does not seem like an impulsive guy and both his GM hires lasted for years here. Both GM's got a fair shot to build a team their way.

Hell, he only fired Pioli after a fan mutiny.

I can see clark wanting long term stability and Dorsey probably was eyeing the GB job down the road. I thought Dorsey was excellent in the draft in rounds 4-7 but also took a lot of reaches and project players that didn't contribute much until years later.

It might just be as simple as it looks...

Chiefnj2 · 06-26-2017, 08:26 AM

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter why Dorsey was fired. KC lost a very good talent scout and GM who was instrumental in turning the team around. It's a bit dysfunctional to fire your GM two months after the draft, especially when that GM just gave up a few first round picks for QB and the organization presumably had a long term development plan in place.

You can't bring in a new GM who doesn't buy into the old plan or else you will have conflict from the get go. IMO there is definitely a power shift to Reid and that is a problem. I've said it before, and it's looking like the Philly blueprint that fell short.

**Rausch** · 06-26-2017, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

IMO there is definitely a power shift to Reid and that is a problem. I've said it before, and it's looking like the Philly blueprint that fell short.

There is absolutely no evidence of that.

Andy is good with QB's and Dorsey traded up to get the QB Andy wanted. Sounds pretty "Same page" to me. I can see the Maclin thing chapping Andy's sizeable ass but other than that it's hard to see why he'd NEED to go for more power - this team clearly drafted/signed Andy's type of player...

Eleazar · 06-26-2017, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

Andy is good with QB's

Based on what?

**Rausch** · 06-26-2017, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

Based on what?

He gets the most out of them. And he doesn't seem bad at grooming them either...

Chiefnj2 · 06-26-2017, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

There is absolutely no evidence of that.

Andy is good with QB's and Dorsey traded up to get the QB Andy wanted. Sounds pretty "Same page" to me. I can see the Maclin thing chapping Andy's sizeable ass but other than that it's hard to see why he'd NEED to go for more power - this team clearly drafted/signed Andy's type of player...

There is a power shift to Andy now that Dorsey is gone. Dorsey and Reid were on the same page. Now that Dorsey is gone, it is unlikely a new GM shares all the same ideas and blueprint. That is why Reid will get more power and more say.

I really don't see the proof that Reid is some personnel guru.

The offense has been holding back this team the last 4 years. That's on Andy. A year ago a lot of people were in agreement that Andy should give up play calling. Now he apparently has even more control and more responsibility.

BlackOp · 06-26-2017, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hog Farmer

As much as I hated Pioli at the end you can look back and say things would have been different for him if he had a QB and a HC that was worth a damn.

Haley hated Cassel... even said he couldn't win with him. Pioli had a man crush on him and his ego couldn't admit he made a mistake. Dorsey was the exact opposite.

**Rausch** · 06-26-2017, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

I really don't see the proof that Reid is some personnel guru.

He's not.

He's good at coaching players.

Honestly I'm not a fan of Andy's "type" of players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

The offense has been holding back this team the last 4 years. That's on Andy. A year ago a lot of people were in agreement that Andy should give up play calling. Now he apparently has even more control and more responsibility.

I think as long as Andy's here he'll be calling most the plays. That's unfortunate but that's just how it is...

**Rain Man** · 06-26-2017, 09:45 AM

A theory that's kind of been hinted at, but not explicitly stated, is that Clark wants to work with guys that he personally likes. As we saw at the draft with the awkward fist bump, perhaps Clark doesn't really enjoy spending time with gum-chewing, film-watching football guys, and he likes hanging out with MBA types. Pioli is more of an MBA type, which is why he lasted so long despite terrible results and an organizational culture that was far worse than anything we're hearing about Dorsey. When you own the team, you can do whatever you want to make yourself happy.

Lex Luthor · 06-26-2017, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Hate

Dane is fully house planted for the Clarks and the Fatass. His enjoyment of the continual 10+ win season is the most important thing in all of sports, and is not to be trifled with!

I guess I missed all of those Super Bowls that Dorsey delivered here.

06-25-2017, 02:52 PM
Quesadilla Joe Abolish The Salary Cap! Join Date: Mar 2008 Casino cash: $4078675	Paylor: Communication, management style were factors in firing of Dorsey A lot of new information/quotes in this article... http://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl...158155634.html Spoiler! The Chiefs have compiled a 43-21 record the last four years thanks to the work of coach Andy Reid and general manager John Dorsey, all while publicly and privately painting a picture of internal harmony and teamwork. They managed to stay unified and on message even during tough times, like the NFL’s tampering investigation into the free-agent signing of Jeremy Maclin that led to fines and the forfeiture of draft picks. But behind the scenes, the Chiefs’ front office did not always run smoothly under Dorsey. Team chairman Clark Hunt’s decision to fire Dorsey was fueled, in part, by concerns about his internal communication and management styles, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation who spoke to The Star on condition of anonymity. As one of the sources said while describing how Dorsey had removed two front-office executives without much explanation: “John does stuff and doesn’t tell people why.” Another source said Dorsey’s management style “could wear on people.” A message left with Dorsey seeking comment for this story was not immediately returned. Dorsey’s firing was announced Thursday, the same day Reid received a contract extension. Both men had a year left on their contracts and report separately, but directly to Hunt. That structure will remain when a new GM is hired. While sources have consistently maintained that Reid and Dorsey worked well together — “You never got the impression they were sparring,” one source told The Star — the two also had different approaches to their jobs. While Reid has a reputation for being structured and process-oriented, Dorsey was described by those who know both men as looser. “He goes with the flow,” one source said of Dorsey. That style didn’t always mesh in situations outside of Dorsey’s undeniable strengths, picking and evaluating players. The other areas Dorsey oversaw were contracts and salary cap management — and the Chiefs have been in cap trouble for a while — in addition to the general, day-to-day management of the team. “He’s not a big disciplinarian or big on chain of command,” a source said, “so people did what they wanted.” “It’s more about his management skills,” another source added. For instance, the typically stable Chiefs also made waves this offseason when Dorsey released director of football administration Trip MacCracken and director of pro scouting Will Lewis. Each man had been with the team for at least four years, and not only were their dismissals surprising, there weren’t many answers to be found, even inside the organization. “Those decisions were totally John’s,” a source said. “That’s the kind of stuff he does.” Sources also critiqued Dorsey’s management style, noting that while he was often friendly and jovial, the same tongue-in-cheek manner he used to win over most people over eventually wore on others. “It could rub people the wrong way at times,” a source said. Dorsey still has fans inside the Chiefs organization. They cited his passion for the game, constant availability and eye for talent as respected strengths. “Loved working for him,” one source said. “Great dude.” “He was always great to us …,” another source added, “You hate to see something like this happen.” Dorsey also has a number of supporters across the league, as an overwhelming amount of league sources who dealt with him on a regular basis — approaching a dozen — told The Star. “He was always a guy that would listen, was a pro, good to work with,” one league source said. “One of my favorite people in 20 years in the business,” another source said. “Honest and straightforward. Man of conviction. Was shocked and sad to see the news.” Multiple sources also called Dorsey a friend on a personal level, noting that it was not unusual for him to call just to say “hello,” even when on vacation. “A consummate pro’s pro in negotiations,” one league source said. “Always up front and straight, and a super talent and football evaluator.” Other league sources agreed with that notion, adding that Dorsey’s standing as an evaluator of talent remains peerless. “He is a dyed-in-the-wool scout, loves the element of watching college players, loves breaking down film,” said Andrew Brandt, who spent 10 years as a Green Bay Packers vice president alongside Dorsey and writes for TheMMQB.com. “That always seemed like that’s what he was most happy, and most comfortable, doing.” It’s a trait that, communication and management issues aside, many league sources believe will be difficult for the Chiefs to replace, especially on the heels of the club losing Dorsey’s talented and respected right-hand man Chris Ballard to Indianapolis five months ago. Ballard is now the Colts’ GM. “I loved him,” one league source said of Dorsey. “Blunt, honest and a great talent evaluator. Losing him and Ballard in one offseason is insane.” Brandt said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Chiefs prioritized talent evaluation, along with leadership and communication, with their next hire. The Chiefs are already over the projected 2018 salary cap, but there’s a widely-held belief around the league that whatever cap issues they have can be rectified in a year or two. “We have this traditional version of an NFL GM coming from a scouting background, like John — and that’s the most popular GM model,” Brandt said. “Then there are a few coming from more of my background, which is from the financial side, about business and cap contracts. The third model is one Andy had in Philly, which is coach/GM. “To me, the real underappreciated trait you want from a GM is leadership and communication, because the GM will be coming from one of those backgrounds and will need to communicate seamlessly with what he’s not an expert at. Teams sometimes rush to sign an expert in one area while maybe not taking into account the necessity for communication in other areas.” Last edited by Quesadilla Joe; 06-25-2017 at 03:11 PM..
Posts: 19,691

06-26-2017, 07:21 AM	#136
MahiMike He's Mahomie! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Jax, FL Casino cash: $10023443	So after pioli and Dorsey only lasting 1 contract each, what kind of 'talent' can we acquire now? Hell at this point, let's go Billy ball. Get a capologist accountant to run the team and let Andy and his scouts pick the players. __________________ 99.9%
Posts: 17,387

06-26-2017, 07:25 AM	#137
oldman Curmudgeon Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North by Northwest Casino cash: $5836784	As CEO of the team, Clark had every right to can Dorsey for whatever reason he thought of. I still don't believe it was some petty, spur of the moment move. There has to be something unforgivable between Ballard's departure and Dorsey's. If the whole GB thing is true and JD continued to use that as leverage after Clark told him to cut it out, then he had to go. If JD ignored the cap specialist and put us in cap hell, he had to go. IF JD was banging some trophy secretary on the roof of One Arrowhead in full view of I-70, he had to go. Clark is no dummy and he does care about winning. The argument that he's a trust fund baby that never had to work for money could be said about Lamar as well, so that mantra is just plain foolish. He hired Pioli, who was the hands-down favorite candidate, made a mistake, and then rectified it. He hired Dorsey and Reid, both top of the line guys. While Dorsey did set us up with talent and filled holes, he overspent on some and had to cut vets to keep afloat. Maybe Dorsey let too much front office talent go. Who knows? While I was surprised as anyone with this, there's no reason to get out the pitchfolks and torches yet.
Posts: 5,319

06-26-2017, 08:11 AM	#140
ChiefGator Can these boys not play? Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Northcentral Florida Casino cash: $7722956	Hopefully we will eventually hear enough to get the full story. It is also quite possible Clark Hunt said he was going to put someone else in charge of contracts to fix the cap, and Dorsey didn't want to be a GM without power in contracts and without power to hire and fire coaches. Which would be somewhat understandable. __________________ - Mark
Posts: 4,597

06-26-2017, 08:26 AM	#142
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $7873688	At the end of the day it doesn't really matter why Dorsey was fired. KC lost a very good talent scout and GM who was instrumental in turning the team around. It's a bit dysfunctional to fire your GM two months after the draft, especially when that GM just gave up a few first round picks for QB and the organization presumably had a long term development plan in place. You can't bring in a new GM who doesn't buy into the old plan or else you will have conflict from the get go. IMO there is definitely a power shift to Reid and that is a problem. I've said it before, and it's looking like the Philly blueprint that fell short. __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
Posts: 22,393

06-26-2017, 09:45 AM	#149
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3298491 VARSITY	A theory that's kind of been hinted at, but not explicitly stated, is that Clark wants to work with guys that he personally likes. As we saw at the draft with the awkward fist bump, perhaps Clark doesn't really enjoy spending time with gum-chewing, film-watching football guys, and he likes hanging out with MBA types. Pioli is more of an MBA type, which is why he lasted so long despite terrible results and an organizational culture that was far worse than anything we're hearing about Dorsey. When you own the team, you can do whatever you want to make yourself happy. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,448