Cardinals Official 2017 STL Cardinals Thread - Page 110

**BigRedChief** · 01-27-2017, 08:06 PM

My as well get it started. Here's my "Matheny" lineup.....

Fowler CF
Diaz SS
Carpenter 1B
Piscotty RF
Grichuk LF
Molina C
Peralta 3B
Wong 2B
Pitcher

My "Matheny" Starting rotation

Martinez
Reyes
Wainwright
Lynn
Leake

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-13-2017, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He's losing Alcantara. I presume you meant Weaver or Reyes?

But yeah, if the lower level arms returns are palatable, I'll be damn glad we got to get to Jeter's carcass before it was picked clean.

I thought it would take both of them to get Ozuna.

DJ's left nut · 12-13-2017, 04:07 PM

So for me, best case scenario would be something like Alcantara, Gomber, Woodford and Adolis-Garcia.

That package is a relief pitcher, a 4th starter, a 5th starter and a potentially okay starting OFer.

I don't suspect we'd get that lucky, but that's how little we have to go with right now. It could be anything from that deal (which I would love) to Hicks, Helsley, Arozarena and Alcantara (which would sting quite a bit). They're both within the same framework and are two entirely different deals based on upside and ability rather than prospect lists.

Hell, you could make a far superior 'prospect list' trade that wouldn't bother me one bit. Sierra, Alcantara, Fernandez and Sosa. We'd be giving up a 5th OFer, 2 relievers and a defensive specialist but by the prospect list we'd be giving up 6, 9, 10, 12.

Those lists just can't be trusted that much; they often put too much stock on proximity to the majors rather than skill-sets. Sierra is among our higher rated OFers on prospect lists but there are probably at least a half dozen guys 'beneath' him that I'd much rather keep.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 12-13-2017, 04:20 PM

Yeah, I don't know if Sierra is much more than Jarrod Dyson

DJ's left nut · 12-13-2017, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Yeah, I don't know if Sierra is much more than Jarrod Dyson

Second piece has trickled out. The OFer. Drumroll please.......

.......

Magneuris Sierra!!! C'mon Down! You get to slap groundballs through the right side and run in circles in front of 9,000 people while taking awful routes in the OF and ensuring that despite ungodly speed you make no real meaningful defensive contribution!

If that report is true, this is actually starting to get a tiny bit funny. I mean, I wouldn't think it was funny if I were JD. But c'mon, let's wrap this thing up with Gomber and Woodford so I can go home and furiously masturbate to the possibility of using the actual good prospects to land Manny Machado.

DJ's left nut · 12-13-2017, 05:18 PM

The final 2 names are in.

Zac Gallen and Daniel Castano.

Folks, I don't even know who Daniel Castano is and I consider myself quite the prospect nerd. Gallen...whatever. Nice arm; probable major leaguer. Needs a breaking ball to start but can probably relieve now if needed. Can't strike anyone out, relies on soft contact. No projectability to speak of. Absolutely 100% forgettable.

We just !@#$ing corn-holed Derek Jeter. Even if the 'bad' projections are what we get from Ozuna and he ends up being more of a .270/.330/.450 kind of player with 20-25 HRs, he's worth more than that pile of slag.

That's friggen remarkable. What the hell are they doing?

**BigRedChief** · 12-13-2017, 05:21 PM

From the Marlins beat writer. Seems like a steal. Am I missing something here DJ?

Source: In addition to Alcantara and Sierra, other two prospects Marlins receiving in Ozuna deal are rhp Zac Gallen and lhp Daniel Castano.
— clarkspencer (@clarkspencer) December 13, 2017

DJ's left nut · 12-13-2017, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

From the Marlins beat writer. Seems like a steal. Am I missing something here DJ?

Source: In addition to Alcantara and Sierra, other two prospects Marlins receiving in Ozuna deal are rhp Zac Gallen and lhp Daniel Castano.
— clarkspencer (@clarkspencer) December 13, 2017

I'm presuming I am.

Because ****ing hell, they just got the 2017 silver slugger and gold glove winner in LF for 4 guys with almost no chance to truly matter in the grand scheme of things. They all have serious projectability concerns.

This is the Marlins picking 3 guys that they know will almost certainly spend some time at the big league level because they all have standout tools (Alcantara - velocity; Sierra - speed; Gallen - command/feel) but not a single one of them can provide you with anything apart from those tools.

They're one-trick ponies. Bench players for good teams.

It's a remarkably paltry return.

Marco Polo · 12-13-2017, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

From the Marlins beat writer. Seems like a steal. Am I missing something here DJ?

Source: In addition to Alcantara and Sierra, other two prospects Marlins receiving in Ozuna deal are rhp Zac Gallen and lhp Daniel Castano.
— clarkspencer (@clarkspencer) December 13, 2017

Wow, very impressive trade. Even better, we still have the chips for future trades/call-ups.

DJ's left nut · 12-13-2017, 05:41 PM

Okay, bear with me for a minute. The Cardinals offer Gyorko, Reyes, Kelly and Grichuk to the Orioles for Machado. They say yes. There's no way they don't. That team is actually better for making that deal NOW and for the next 3 years. It's not even all that close given how little depth they have to work with.

Meanwhile the Cardinals still have DeJong to play 3b (or Carpenter if Martinez takes over at 1b). They still have Knizner to replace Molina long-term. They still have Flaherty, Weaver, Hudson, Hicks and Helsley as long-term rotation/bullpen options. They still have O'Niell if an eventual Machado extension uses up the financial resources to extend Ozuna. If they lose Machado next year, DeJong goes back to SS, Carpenter to 3b and Martinez to 1b. It's shitty, but it's not a disaster.

I mean...that makes almost too much sense, right? The Orioles get a 3 WAR 3b back in Gyorko under a great contract (who will MASH in Baltimore). They get a very high end SP prospect. They get their catcher for the next 10 years and they get another guy who will kill it in Baltimore in Grichuk, who will give them 2-3 WAR annually if they just let him go out there and hit bombs while playing credible defense. And that's for 1 year of Machado who they are now seemingly resigned to being unable to re-sign.

They're better for that deal, no? And the Cardinals suddenly have equal firepower to the Cubs.

Am I far off base there?

**BigRedChief** · 12-13-2017, 05:55 PM

Mlb tv saying Boras met with Washington today and wants $500 million for Harpers new contract.

DJ's left nut · 12-13-2017, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Mlb tv saying Boras met with Washington today and wants $500 million for Harpers new contract.

Of course he does. If Harper is going to stay out of the market altogether, Boras is going to want a 10-20% premium over what he thinks the market would likely provide. That's just how Boras operates.

He's not going to lock down a guy a year removed from FA long-term without getting a lot in return.

Though if he gets his $500 million, he'd better not be looking for an opt-out as well.

jd1020 · 12-13-2017, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The final 2 names are in.

Zac Gallen and Daniel Castano.

Folks, I don't even know who Daniel Castano is and I consider myself quite the prospect nerd. Gallen...whatever. Nice arm; probable major leaguer. Needs a breaking ball to start but can probably relieve now if needed. Can't strike anyone out, relies on soft contact. No projectability to speak of. Absolutely 100% forgettable.

We just !@#$ing corn-holed Derek Jeter. Even if the 'bad' projections are what we get from Ozuna and he ends up being more of a .270/.330/.450 kind of player with 20-25 HRs, he's worth more than that pile of slag.

That's friggen remarkable. What the hell are they doing?

How is that better than what they got for Stanton?

Cubs need to call them up on Yelich. They are just giving players away.

kcpasco · 12-13-2017, 06:02 PM

I liked Sierra but that’s a hell of a steal by the Cardinals.

DJ's left nut · 12-13-2017, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020

How is that better than what they got for Stanton?

Cubs need to call them up on Yelich. They are just giving players away.

Depends on how much stock you put in 'the lists'.

Based on things like the prospect handbook, that's 3 top 15 prospects from one of the deeper systems in the game. Give that a 1,000 mile view and it's not a bad return.

But man, I just can't wipe the grin off my face because I don't see the lists as meaning a whole lot here. The only thing that saves that deal is if Alcantara finds command and stamina. Those are two pretty tough things to develop for a guy that's never really demonstrated either of them.

jd1020 · 12-13-2017, 06:05 PM

Along with Castro the Yankees traded Jorge Guzman who is Alcantara only with an 80 grade fastball vs 70 and a 55 grade slider vs a 50 curveball.

I would trade what the Cardinals gave up for what the Yankees gave up without even thinking about it.

At this point it's almost if the Cubs offered them Baez or Happ then Jeter would trade Yelich AND Castro back to the Cubs. Gotta save a few million, right? GMs have to be laughing about Jeter in the back rooms.

01-27-2017, 08:06 PM
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3139627 VARSITY	Official 2017 STL Cardinals Thread My as well get it started. Here's my "Matheny" lineup..... Fowler CF Diaz SS Carpenter 1B Piscotty RF Grichuk LF Molina C Peralta 3B Wong 2B Pitcher My "Matheny" Starting rotation Martinez Reyes Wainwright Lynn Leake
Posts: 79,028

12-13-2017, 04:07 PM	#1637
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $2999099	So for me, best case scenario would be something like Alcantara, Gomber, Woodford and Adolis-Garcia. That package is a relief pitcher, a 4th starter, a 5th starter and a potentially okay starting OFer. I don't suspect we'd get that lucky, but that's how little we have to go with right now. It could be anything from that deal (which I would love) to Hicks, Helsley, Arozarena and Alcantara (which would sting quite a bit). They're both within the same framework and are two entirely different deals based on upside and ability rather than prospect lists. Hell, you could make a far superior 'prospect list' trade that wouldn't bother me one bit. Sierra, Alcantara, Fernandez and Sosa. We'd be giving up a 5th OFer, 2 relievers and a defensive specialist but by the prospect list we'd be giving up 6, 9, 10, 12. Those lists just can't be trusted that much; they often put too much stock on proximity to the majors rather than skill-sets. Sierra is among our higher rated OFers on prospect lists but there are probably at least a half dozen guys 'beneath' him that I'd much rather keep. __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 60,390

12-13-2017, 04:20 PM	#1638
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $8009572	Yeah, I don't know if Sierra is much more than Jarrod Dyson __________________ "When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”--Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 74,826

12-13-2017, 05:18 PM	#1640
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $2999099	The final 2 names are in. Zac Gallen and Daniel Castano. Folks, I don't even know who Daniel Castano is and I consider myself quite the prospect nerd. Gallen...whatever. Nice arm; probable major leaguer. Needs a breaking ball to start but can probably relieve now if needed. Can't strike anyone out, relies on soft contact. No projectability to speak of. Absolutely 100% forgettable. We just !@#$ing corn-holed Derek Jeter. Even if the 'bad' projections are what we get from Ozuna and he ends up being more of a .270/.330/.450 kind of player with 20-25 HRs, he's worth more than that pile of slag. That's friggen remarkable. What the hell are they doing? __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 60,390

12-13-2017, 05:21 PM	#1641
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3139627 VARSITY	From the Marlins beat writer. Seems like a steal. Am I missing something here DJ? Source: In addition to Alcantara and Sierra, other two prospects Marlins receiving in Ozuna deal are rhp Zac Gallen and lhp Daniel Castano. — clarkspencer (@clarkspencer) December 13, 2017 __________________ Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. -YODA
Posts: 79,028

12-13-2017, 05:41 PM	#1644
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $2999099	Okay, bear with me for a minute. The Cardinals offer Gyorko, Reyes, Kelly and Grichuk to the Orioles for Machado. They say yes. There's no way they don't. That team is actually better for making that deal NOW and for the next 3 years. It's not even all that close given how little depth they have to work with. Meanwhile the Cardinals still have DeJong to play 3b (or Carpenter if Martinez takes over at 1b). They still have Knizner to replace Molina long-term. They still have Flaherty, Weaver, Hudson, Hicks and Helsley as long-term rotation/bullpen options. They still have O'Niell if an eventual Machado extension uses up the financial resources to extend Ozuna. If they lose Machado next year, DeJong goes back to SS, Carpenter to 3b and Martinez to 1b. It's shitty, but it's not a disaster. I mean...that makes almost too much sense, right? The Orioles get a 3 WAR 3b back in Gyorko under a great contract (who will MASH in Baltimore). They get a very high end SP prospect. They get their catcher for the next 10 years and they get another guy who will kill it in Baltimore in Grichuk, who will give them 2-3 WAR annually if they just let him go out there and hit bombs while playing credible defense. And that's for 1 year of Machado who they are now seemingly resigned to being unable to re-sign. They're better for that deal, no? And the Cardinals suddenly have equal firepower to the Cubs. Am I far off base there? __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 60,390

12-13-2017, 05:55 PM	#1645
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3139627 VARSITY	Mlb tv saying Boras met with Washington today and wants $500 million for Harpers new contract. __________________ Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. -YODA
Posts: 79,028

12-13-2017, 06:02 PM	#1648
kcpasco MVP Join Date: Sep 2007 Casino cash: $7733463	I liked Sierra but that’s a hell of a steal by the Cardinals.
Posts: 15,477

12-13-2017, 06:05 PM	#1650
jd1020 In Search of a Life Join Date: Nov 2010 Casino cash: $7742645	Along with Castro the Yankees traded Jorge Guzman who is Alcantara only with an 80 grade fastball vs 70 and a 55 grade slider vs a 50 curveball. I would trade what the Cardinals gave up for what the Yankees gave up without even thinking about it. At this point it's almost if the Cubs offered them Baez or Happ then Jeter would trade Yelich AND Castro back to the Cubs. Gotta save a few million, right? GMs have to be laughing about Jeter in the back rooms. Last edited by jd1020; 12-13-2017 at 06:20 PM..
Posts: 24,322