The Dark Knight Rises *Spoilers* Thread

[Reaper16]

My biggest beef with the film re: thing-being-included-only-to-set-up-twists is the whole pit prison deal. It seemed to be doing 2 things: 1.) show how tough Bane was because he alone escaped, and 2.) teach Bruce that if he no longer fears death then he can save Gotham from Bane (which would reinforce the sacrificing-himself-by-flying-the-nuke-out-to-sea bit, which was somewhat undone by the cop-out reveal that he somehow lived and he and Selina got clean slates and moved to Italy.

But the twist that it was Talia that escaped, not Bane, does harm to the film, IMO. Because...why was Bane tough then? Or smart? Bane couldn't figure out -- like I'm sure many of us did very quickly into the prison scenes -- that the rope was the only thing preventing you from escaping. He didn't escape through some sheer force of will. He was rescued, in fact (albeit after contracting whatever painful plague thing he got).

So Bane goes down like the chump that he was (accidentally) revealed to be as soon as Bruce next encounters him. Bruce doesn't learn any secret to beating Bane, because that lesson about fear-of-death doesn't end up applying to anything.

It all was working for me as the film went along...until the needless twist.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

My biggest beef with the film re: thing-being-included-only-to-set-up-twists is the whole pit prison deal. It seemed to be doing 2 things: 1.) show how tough Bane was because he alone escaped, and 2.) teach Bruce that if he no longer fears death then he can save Gotham from Bane (which would reinforce the sacrificing-himself-by-flying-the-nuke-out-to-sea bit, which was somewhat undone by the cop-out reveal that he somehow lived and he and Selina got clean slates and moved to Italy.

But the twist that it was Talia that escaped, not Bane, does harm to the film, IMO. Because...why was Bane tough then? Or smart? Bane couldn't figure out -- like I'm sure many of us did very quickly into the prison scenes -- that the rope was the only thing preventing you from escaping. He didn't escape through some sheer force of will. He was rescued, in fact (albeit after contracting whatever painful plague thing he got).

So Bane goes down like the chump that he was (accidentally) revealed to be as soon as Bruce next encounters him. Bruce doesn't learn any secret to beating Bane, because that lesson about fear-of-death doesn't end up applying to anything.

It all was working for me as the film went along...until the needless twist.

I thought the lesson learned in the prison was to have a healthy fear of death. That fear of dying enabled Bruce (minus the rope) to climb out of the prison. His whole life was about suppressing and fighting fear with fear I figured he had become immune to fear, hence him becoming a recluse, aching to be Batman again. The lesson he learned in the prison enabled him to move on and live life as Bruce Wayne.

That was my take at least.

[Reaper16]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

I thought the lesson learned in the prison was to have a healthy fear of death. That fear of dying enabled Bruce (minus the rope) to climb out of the prison. His whole life was about suppressing and fighting fear with fear I figured he had become immune to fear, hence him becoming a recluse, aching to be Batman again. The lesson he learned in the prison enabled him to move on and live life as Bruce Wayne.

That was my take at least.

Losing a fear of death allows him to move on from being Batman? That's a solid take. Makes sense.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

Losing a fear of death allows him to move on from being Batman? That's a solid take. Makes sense.

I wouldn't say losing fear of death. I would say regaining his fear of death. The League of Shadows groomed him to be the perfect mercenary, to be without fear which, in turn, made him Batman. To return to humanity, as Bruce Wayne, he needed that fear re-established.

[Reaper16]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

I wouldn't say losing fear of death. I would say regaining his fear of death. The League of Shadows groomed him to be the perfect mercenary, to be without fear which, in turn, made him Batman. To return to humanity, as Bruce Wayne, he needed that fear re-established.

Oh. But...that doesn't jibe with the scene that I saw last night. Unless I misheard some key bit of dialogue. Because it seems like you'd wear that rope because you were afraid of dying (from a slip of the foot or from not making that leap. Because you, in that prison, will have seen many people try and fail, and so you'll want a safety precaution).

Bruce even says in the prison how he's afraid of x, y, and z. That was before he learned the stuff that allowed him to get out of the pit.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

Oh. But...that doesn't jibe with the scene that I saw last night. Unless I misheard some key bit of dialogue. Because it seems like you'd wear that rope because you were afraid of dying (from a slip of the foot or from not making that leap. Because you, in that prison, will have seen many people try and fail, and so you'll want a safety precaution).

Bruce even says in the prison how he's afraid of x, y, and z. That was before he learned the stuff that allowed him to get out of the pit.

One of us misheard. But the way I see it is if you are afraid of death and you attempt to climb that high of a wall, your going to give your max to ensure you don't die. The rope hindered his ability to climb because he knew that if he fell, he would be fine. Fearing death and climbing without the rope worked together to achieve his goal.

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

Oh. But...that doesn't jibe with the scene that I saw last night. Unless I misheard some key bit of dialogue. Because it seems like you'd wear that rope because you were afraid of dying (from a slip of the foot or from not making that leap. Because you, in that prison, will have seen many people try and fail, and so you'll want a safety precaution).

Bruce even says in the prison how he's afraid of x, y, and z. That was before he learned the stuff that allowed him to get out of the pit.

As I recall, the doctor comments on Bruce's fear of death. He says he isn't afraid of death, and the doctor tells him that's why he fails.

The rope eliminates the fear of death. If you don't make the jump, you know you're going to be fine.

[Reaper16]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

As I recall, the doctor comments on Bruce's fear of death. He says he isn't afraid of death, and the doctor tells him that's why he fails.

The rope eliminates the fear of death. If you don't make the jump, you know you're going to be fine.

Ah, I see how I was getting that twisted. To my mind, you want the safety rope because you're afraid to die. The rope means you won't. Going sans rope to me means you accept the consequences of failure -- it's a brave, less-fearful thing to me.

At any rate, I don't know what that lesson imparts to Bruce or to the film.

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by Reaper16

My biggest beef with the film re: thing-being-included-only-to-set-up-twists is the whole pit prison deal. It seemed to be doing 2 things: 1.) show how tough Bane was because he alone escaped, and 2.) teach Bruce that if he no longer fears death then he can save Gotham from Bane (which would reinforce the sacrificing-himself-by-flying-the-nuke-out-to-sea bit, which was somewhat undone by the cop-out reveal that he somehow lived and he and Selina got clean slates and moved to Italy.

But the twist that it was Talia that escaped, not Bane, does harm to the film, IMO. Because...why was Bane tough then? Or smart? Bane couldn't figure out -- like I'm sure many of us did very quickly into the prison scenes -- that the rope was the only thing preventing you from escaping. He didn't escape through some sheer force of will. He was rescued, in fact (albeit after contracting whatever painful plague thing he got).

So Bane goes down like the chump that he was (accidentally) revealed to be as soon as Bruce next encounters him. Bruce doesn't learn any secret to beating Bane, because that lesson about fear-of-death doesn't end up applying to anything.

It all was working for me as the film went along...until the needless twist.

I think one big thing to consider here is that Bruce wasn't learning how to conquer his fear of death. He'd already done that.

He was learning how important fear is. The issue is he needed the fear back. I think that plays pretty heavily into his escape. Perhaps not so heavily into defeating Bane, I'll grant you. But I don't think it was entirely pointless or inconsequential.

The movie, to me, seemed to be like Batman Begins in reverse. The whole second half was more about Bruce vs himself than Batman vs Bane. Not arguing that as a strength or a weakness, just making an observation.

I'm fine with Bane being muscle and less brains. And in the end Batman still wasn't going to be able to defeat Bane on his own. But, again, I'm not sure that's what it was about.

And the Breaking Bad crack was just that. It was a crack. Me making fun of myself more than anything. Your comment sounded similar to some of mine re: that show. And I don't think it's worlds apart, frankly. We've seen characters on BB acting completely out of character for the sake of plot, and sometimes, even plot "twists."

[kaplin42]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

I think one big thing to consider here is that Bruce wasn't learning how to conquer his fear of death. He'd already done that.

He was learning how important fear is. The issue is he needed the fear back. I think that plays pretty heavily into his escape. Perhaps not so heavily into defeating Bane, I'll grant you. But I don't think it was entirely pointless or inconsequential.

The movie, to me, seemed to be like Batman Begins in reverse. The whole second half was more about Bruce vs himself than Batman vs Bane. Not arguing that as a strength or a weakness, just making an observation.

I'm fine with Bane being muscle and less brains. And in the end Batman still wasn't going to be able to defeat Bane on his own. But, again, I'm not sure that's what it was about.

And the Breaking Bad crack was just that. It was a crack. Me making fun of myself more than anything. Your comment sounded similar to some of mine re: that show. And I don't think it's worlds apart, frankly. We've seen characters on BB acting completely out of character for the sake of plot, and sometimes, even plot "twists."

Before I read more of this thread, I have to clarify this whole thing.

In the prison, the old guy says that you have to have a fear of death, or you have nothing help you beyond the point of reason. to paraphrase, "how can you fight beyond what you can, how can persevere beyond what is possible without a fear of death, because without the fear of death, you have nothing to fight for"

The rope is nothing more than a safety net, no one ever makes the jump because if they don't make it they know they will still live. Take the rope away, and if you miss the jump, you die.

Batman lost to Bane in the first fight cause he didn't care if he won or lost, if he died it was no big deal to him. He won the fight the second time because he had something to fight for.

Also, it was mentioned in the prison that Bane's mask alleviates the pain of the injuries from when Bane got the shit kicked out of him helping Talia escape. If you watch the second fight between Batman and Bane, you will notice Batman going for the mask.

If this was made clear in the remainder of the thread, sorry, but I was reading this and wanted to help clarify it.

[Mr. Plow]

Originally Posted by kaplin42

In the prison, the old guy says that you have to have a fear of death, or you have nothing help you beyond the point of reason. to paraphrase, "how can you fight beyond what you can, how can persevere beyond what is possible without a fear of death, because without the fear of death, you have nothing to fight for"

Thank you. You said it in the way I was trying to say it but failed miserably.