****OFFICIAL 2013 NBA PLAYOFFS THREAD****

[-King-]

2012-2013 NBA Champions:

[KevB]

Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare

80s to early 90's and Shaq he'd be in my player range category

Shaq played from 92 to 08

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by KevB

If you think the depth and talent top to bottom is equal, not just the elite in each era (you've created a straw man here, I'm not arguing this point), then there's really no reason for us to discuss further.

In 5 to 10 years, when this "class" of players finishes their careers, you're going to find that the number of HOF players is going to be roughly equal to the era you're touting. Are we comparing 90's and 2000's? If I get the 2000's, I'll shotgun Duncan (best PF of all time), Kobe (top 10 all time), Shaq (arguably top 10 all time), LeBron (will be top 3 when he's done), Durant (sky is the limit), Paul (will be one of top 5 PGs all time), Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen (best shooter all time), Wade, Dirk, Melo, Westbrook, Howard, Rose, Parker, etc. And there's plenty more young talent that could ascend like Curry, Kyrie, Love, Harden, George among others.

http://work.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...postcount=3049

here's mine I won't name more because I've had more time to think about it.

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by KevB

Shaq played from 92 to 08

yep still in my range, hell I was in 4th grade when Shaq came up

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KevB

How about Magic? Was he a stout defender? Bird, great defender? Dantley, Gervin, Alex English, Dominique, Barkley.....??? There were plenty of premier players back then who weren't well-rounded, and defense was a rumor.

The biggest difference is that today's big guys aren't generally skilled as post scorers --- I'll agree on that point. But they're also generally more athletic and have the ability to hit perimeter shots. Karl Malone was considered a premier big man with his biggest weapon being the ability to consistently hit the 15 footer on the pick and pop. We have bigs today who are expected to consistently step out and knock down 20 footers. Guys like Garnett, Aldridge, Gasol, Dirk, etc. Just a bit different game in that respect.

You are talking about the exception, not the rule. There were a hell of a lot better fundamentals guys, defensive players, and passers in the 80's and 90's than there are today.

[KevB]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You have a pretty loose standard for what a hall of famer should be. No offense, but the majority of those shouldn't be hall of famers. And a bunch of those guys were every bit a part of the 90's era as they were in today's.

You seriously going to judge their credentials as they stand today? I'm going to go ahead and make the leap that 24 year olds like Durant, Rose, Westbrook, etc. may do some things between now and when they retire that will warrant some consideration beyond what they've currently accomplished.

As for the players I included....only Shaq isn't still playing. It's the year 2013. TW is talking about the 80's and 90's. If a guy is still playing, I'm going to say he's in my group. TW is cherry picking with roughly 20 years, with every player having already finished his career (and thus we know what's been accomplished). My group has 13 years, and there's plenty of young guys who are just beginning to move into their peak years.

[KevB]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You are talking about the exception, not the rule. There were a hell of a lot better fundamentals guys, defensive players, and passers in the 80's and 90's than there are today.

I picked from a top 20 list of the best players of the 1980's --- it's not as if I picked a bunch of no name guys. They weren't exceptions. Teams were generally offensive by nature in the 80's, and the best players of that decade make that clear.

[KevB]

Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare

http://work.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...postcount=3049

here's mine I won't name more because I've had more time to think about it.

It's a nice list of really good players. Give me 5 to 10 years when my list has also retired, and we'll see where we are. Many of the guys on your list are just guys, there's players in every era that match up. Daugherty, Price, Drexler, LJ, and Walton come to mind. Really good players, but not elite to the point that they stand above what came before or after them.

The irony here is that I guarantee nobody on this board watched more NBA games in the 80's and 90's than I did. I was an only child with cable television, a VCR and unhealthy love of sports. I have a profound respect and understanding of how good those players were. I just think people are undervaluing the quality of today's players.

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by KevB

It's a nice list of really good players. Give me 5 to 10 years when my list has also retired, and we'll see where we are. Many of the guys on your list are just guys, there's players in every era that match up. Daugherty, Price, Drexler, LJ, and Walton come to mind. Really good players, but not elite to the point that they stand above what came before or after them.

The irony here is that I guarantee nobody on this board watched more NBA games in the 80's and 90's than I did. I was an only child with cable television, a VCR and unhealthy love of sports. I have a profound respect and understanding of how good those players were. I just think people are undervaluing the quality of today's players.

way back when I doubt that

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KevB

You seriously going to judge their credentials as they stand today? I'm going to go ahead and make the leap that 24 year olds like Durant, Rose, Westbrook, etc. may do some things between now and when they retire that will warrant some consideration beyond what they've currently accomplished.

As for the players I included....only Shaq isn't still playing. It's the year 2013. TW is talking about the 80's and 90's. If a guy is still playing, I'm going to say he's in my group. TW is cherry picking with roughly 20 years, with every player having already finished his career (and thus we know what's been accomplished). My group has 13 years, and there's plenty of young guys who are just beginning to move into their peak years.

Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe aren't in this era. They are going to be in the HOF 10 years before most of the guys on this list. They are only on the list because they lasted a long time. More than anything, that's a testament. to superior rehab.

You are basing this entirely on PPG in an era where those stats are inflated by horrible defense and very strict rules on handchecking. Melo is not a hall of famer. He is our generation's Glen Rice. Wade and Pierce are borderline. They are the 90's version of Mitch Richmond. CP3... maybe, if he starts playing well in the playoffs. Ray Allen is not a hall of famer -- he is a worse version of Chris Mullen, who was a better scorer. Westbrook is this generation's version of Tim Hardaway. Howard is not a hall of famer. This era has some talent, but you're using a pretty loose standard for what constitutes a hall of famer. A good number of hall of famers will make it, but if you spread them out over when they are expected to retire, it's not like there's an unusual amount.

When you look at the hall of fame classes of the 90's and some of the really good snubs (Hardaway, Zo, Richmond, KJ, Aguirre, and more), there was plenty of talent in that era.

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by tk13

I think there are plenty of good players and there's been a resurgence of talent. But I feel like some more guys need to take the next step and challenge LeBron. That's why Hootie's argument has some merit. I think at this point it's LeBron's league... but I'd never count out any team with Durant.

Part of it is probably the lack of big men. Robinson, Olajuwon... Shaq. Those guys would destroy this league today. Dwight Howard could be that good but he's too much of a headcase. Blake Griffin has the physical talent, but I don't know. The Clippers find a way to screw things up.

Three words:

Nikola.

****ing.

Pekovic.

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by SNR

Three words:

Nikola.

****ing.

Pekovic.

Yep, Divac's old buddy who got shot and killed ( again on pure memory) correction that was Drazen Petrovich and just remembered that too

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Tribal Warfare

MJ, Larry Magic, Worthy, Drexler,Ewing,Barkley,Drexler,Pippen,Mullen,Wilkins,Robinson, Reggie Miller, Walton, Olajuwon,Mourning,Isaih Thomas, Kenny Johnson, Larry Johnson before his knee injury,Brad Daugherty, Mark Price, Stockton, and Malone


that's literally is off of pure memory without looking it up and cheating.

Two parts of Run TMC (Hardaway, Richmond), Mark Aguirre, Joe Dumars (incredible defender), Glen Rice (their version of Melo), Horace Grant, Kevin McHale, Iverson, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Mutombo, Chris Webber, Sprewell,

[Tribal Warfare]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Two parts of Run TMC (Hardaway, Richmond), Mark Aguirre, Joe Dumars (incredible defender), Glen Rice (their version of Melo), Horace Grant, Kevin McHale, Iverson, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Mutombo, Chris Webber, Sprewell,

Detlef Schrempf and Derek Coleman too

[KevB]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe aren't in this era. They are going to be in the HOF 10 years before most of the guys on this list. They are only on the list because they lasted a long time. More than anything, that's a testament. to superior rehab.

You are basing this entirely on PPG in an era where those stats are inflated by horrible defense and very strict rules on handchecking. Melo is not a hall of famer. He is our generation's Glen Rice. Wade and Pierce are borderline. They are the 90's version of Mitch Richmond. CP3... maybe, if he starts playing well in the playoffs. Ray Allen is not a hall of famer -- he is a worse version of Chris Mullen, who was a better scorer. Westbrook is this generation's version of Tim Hardaway. Howard is not a hall of famer. This era has some talent, but you're using a pretty loose standard for what constitutes a hall of famer. A good number of hall of famers will make it, but if you spread them out over when they are expected to retire, it's not like there's an unusual amount.

When you look at the hall of fame classes of the 90's and some of the really good snubs (Hardaway, Zo, Richmond, KJ, Aguirre, and more), there was plenty of talent in that era.

Shaq is arguable as he got started in the early 90's, but Duncan and Kobe had most of their success in the 2000's. How many years do I get to choose from.....5? You're pulling from 20-25 years?

As to your player comps, you're not making sense. When all is said and done, Melo will probably be this generation's Dominique Wilkins. Prime time scorer, never actually won anything. Their career stats are almost identical.

Wade and Pierce are borderline? Wade's career averages are 25/6/5/2/1 and he'll have at least four rings when all is said and done. Pierce is one of the greatest Celtics of all time.

Ray Allen is the best shooter the league has ever seen and has more 3's than anyone in history. Given his ring(s) and his stats through his peak years, he's a shoe in HOF guy. Oh, and go check the stats on Allen and Mullin at Basketball Reference and then get back to me.

CP3 does need more post-season success, but he's an historically elite PG who is still just 28.

Westbrook is Tim Hardaway? You have to be trolling at this point. Westbrook is 24 years old and he's already a better all-around player.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Well a team that I hate is going to win yet another Championship. Time to start looking towards next year.

Rockets looking like they are passing LA as the favorite for Dwight Howard. T-Rob trade didn't work out as planned, but he has to have some value still, right? Still only lost Patrick Patterson, so no big deal. If they manage to get T-Rob off the books and land Howard, maybe they trade Asik (who deserves to start somewhere) and the Rockets could get a quality 4 for next year.

My preference might be Asik for KG. This would allow Terrance Jones (21), Montiejunas (23), and Greg Smith (22) to continue their growth off the bench. They all showed flashes and combined for nearly 2,000 minutes last year, but none are yet starters on a team that will want to contend for a title. KG with 25-30 minutes/game and the rotation of bigs will do just fine.

They could explore getting another vet. min guard for the Lin/Harden/Beverley rotation, but I think James Anderson could fill this role. He could play a little SF too. He needs to improve his 3-point shooting a little bit, but I like him as a player if they ask him to expand his role.

10-man rotation

PG- Lin/Beverley
SG- Harden/Anderson
SF- Parsons/Anderson/T. Jones
PF- KG/T. Jones/Motiejunas
C- Howard/G. Smith


Plan B
Howard stays in LA or goes to Dallas or something

Sign Josh Smith (meh)
Trade T-Rob
Add another shooter

PG- Lin/Beverley
SG- Harden/Anderson
SF- Parsons/FA/T. Jones
PF- J. Smith/T. Jones/Motiejunas
C- Asik/G. Smith