Gambler caught marking cards

[Rain Man]

I'm not a gambler, but I know some people around here are into poker, so I'm curious how you think he might have been marking cards. It seems like such a thing would be very difficult to do in modern casinos. And could he have been cheating at the poker as well?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/29/justic...t=hp_inthenews

Legendary gambler Archie Karas accused of marking cards in San Diego casino

By Emma Lacey-Bordeaux, CNN
updated 11:03 PM EDT, Sun September 29, 2013

(CNN) -- His was a rags-to-riches tale. A Greek immigrant who came to the United States and made it big. A waiter who gambled in his spare time. A poker prodigy who turned $50 into $40 million in just three years.

Archie Karas has described himself the "king of the gamblers," but authorities in San Diego are now calling him a cheater.

On Friday, police arrested the 62-year-old Karas, whose legal name is Anargyros Karabourniotis, at his home in Las Vegas, on allegations he marked cards during a blackjack game in San Diego in July. The alleged cheating was also caught on camera, according to authorities.

The alleged incident occurred at San Diego's Barona Casino. Karas won $8,000 playing blackjack, but San Diego District Attorney Bonnie Dumanis says video shows the gambler cheated with a technique known as marking cards.

Marking cards allows a player to identify the value of cards. If done correctly, neither the dealer nor other players notice the marks -- only the player who is in on the scheme.

"This defendant's luck ran out thanks to extraordinary cooperation between several different law enforcement agencies who worked together to investigate and prosecute this case," Dumanis said.

Karas is being held in Las Vegas without bail. He faces charges of burglary, winning by fraudulent means and cheating. He is expected to appear in court Monday for an extradition hearing.

It was not immediately clear if Karas has legal representation.

Karas' exploits are legendary in the poker world.

In 1992, he went to Las Vegas with just $50. He got a $10,000 loan from a poker buddy at Binion's Horseshoe, according to Poker.org. Karas tripled the loan in one game.

From there he went on to bet and win at pool, then poker.

"I was the best," Karas told ESPN in an interview broadcast in 2008. "Anybody who'd come to town I'd play them, I didn't care who they were and I'd win, too."

But he had a problem, he recounted to ESPN. No one would play him anymore; he had simply won too much.

He didn't quit. Instead, he changed the game.

"I had to play dice," he told ESPN. He said lines of people used to show up to watch him bet $1 million on each roll. "I ran it up to $40 million," he recalled. "It was a lot of money."

But as quickly as it came, the money left Karas. He said he lost $20 million in 10 days. Soon, it was all gone.

It took him three years to win the $40 million and only three weeks to lose it.

If the loss hurt Karas, he didn't show it in his 2008 interview.

"I consider myself the king of gamblers," he said, chuckling. "I made it, I lost it and like Frank Sinatra says, I stood tall and I took the punches and I did it my way."

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

There are countless ways to mark cards. More than likely he was probably doing something simple like nicking 10-valued cards with his fingernail. This could pay dividends in blackjack. It's doubtful that he was cheating at poker though. You would need a much more robust method that would not only identify the value of the card but also the suit to really be effective.

For what it's worth, there really is no such thing as a good gambler. Rather there are good cheaters and lucky gamblers. Cheaters get caught though, and the law of large numbers usually limits how lucky people are in the long run.

That is silly. There are plenty of good sports bettors.

[BlackHelicopters]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

That is silly. There are plenty of good sports bettors.

10 star lock free on recorded message.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

You don't have to have a good hand to win. Conversely, the best hand doesn't always win.

How often does the best hand not win? I presume you're talking about someone bluffing and getting a good hand to fold, which seems like it would be exceedingly rare. If I have a good hand, I'm playing it to the end.

Note that I don't play poker, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Dartgod]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

Again, poker is not gambling when played correctly, and card counting is cheating according to the rules set forth by the casino, so my comment still stands.

This is incorrect.

[Garcia Bronco]

Gamblers and Casino's get exactly what they deserve.

[Chief Gump]

I thought you just disappeared when you did crap like this in Vegas.

[Easy 6]

Originally Posted by Chief Gump

I thought you just disappeared when you did crap like this in Vegas.

Cattle prod time.

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

How often does the best hand not win? I presume you're talking about someone bluffing and getting a good hand to fold, which seems like it would be exceedingly rare. If I have a good hand, I'm playing it to the end.

Note that I don't play poker, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

That is essentially what I am talking about. But the best hand not winning no doubt occurs more often than you might think, especially among amateur players.

For instance if the board reads Ace, 8, 3, K, J and you are holding a King/Queen, how comfortable are you that you are going to win? Especially if the other player has been betting hard and representing an Ace even though they just have a pair of 8s. Or if the flush possibility is also out there, you are even more uncomfortable. Obviously the decision to call or fold to a final bet in front of you depends on the amount of the bet, how much you have already committed to the pot, and how the action played out, but you can never be too sure. In this case, you will probably be playing your pair of kings to the end. But imagine you only have a pair of Jacks. Now you are really uneasy about your hand even though you have had the other player dominated since the turn card. The intricacies that go into the game are a large part of what makes it enjoyable.

[Bugeater]

Originally Posted by Chief Gump

I thought you just disappeared when you did crap like this in Vegas.

He didn't get caught in Vegas.

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I've never figured out the fun of poker. It seems like it's reasonably easy to assess one's odds and draw cards accordingly, but if you get a terrible hand there's not much you can do. And the luck in drawing a hand is about 100 times more powerful than your skill in assessing the odds and drawing cards (which themselves will be luck).

So it seems like a really good player can occasionally know the odds and get lucky to turn a bad hand into a good hand, but luck still is the predominant factor by a large margin.

I'm with you... I've been to many a gambling facility to include Monaco (just to sya I was there!!), and I don't get it. I see the allure of the high-stakes places like Monaco and the places where the truly wealthy and skilled ply, but when I go to "the boats" it's just kind of sad. From the elderly folks dragging o2 bottles from slot machine to slot machine, to the others who are sitting at tables and just don't look like they're having fun (by the looks on their faces). And it's not a poker face deal, it's just the look like they're there because it's a little better than being at home watching infomercials.

So I could be wrong, but more than 20 minutes at a blackjack table and I'm kind of bored.

But alas, if that's what they want to do, have fun, I'll go to the comedy shows or watch some little oriental folks fly through the air. After all, I love NASCAR and most folks find that to me tantamount to watching cars on the highway. So obviously I'm just missing something when it comes to cards and board ("bored" as I say) games..

[Lex Luthor]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

There are countless ways to mark cards. More than likely he was probably doing something simple like nicking 10-valued cards with his fingernail. This could pay dividends in blackjack. It's doubtful that he was cheating at poker though. You would need a much more robust method that would not only identify the value of the card but also the suit to really be effective.

For what it's worth, there really is no such thing as a good gambler. Rather there are good cheaters and lucky gamblers. Cheaters get caught though, and the law of large numbers usually limits how lucky people are in the long run.

That's not really correct. Just take the game of Texas Hold'em for example. A skilled player can greatly improve his odds of winning, a skilled player can win some hands by bluffing, and a skilled player can minimize his losses by correctly reading the other players and folding when he should fold. However, Texas Hold'Em is a game that combines skill and luck.

Phil Helmuth has won more World Series of Poker bracelets than anyone else, yet he often finishes out of the money. I suppose you can argue that he simply plays better in some tournaments than others. After all, Tiger Woods misses the cut on the PGA tour sometimes, and nobody says that golf is gambling.

However, you can also make a pretty convincing argument that a run of bad cards knocks Phil Hellmuth out of tournaments on a regular basis, even when he plays his hands perfectly. That's just part of the game, and that's the gambling aspect of it. There's a degree of luck involved because the player has absolutely no control over the cards that are dealt. A player can make a horrible bet or a horrible call, and then get lucky because against all odds, he got the exact card he needed. That's luck. That doesn't happen in sports where the winners and losers are determined strictly by who plays the best.

If you don't have the requisite skill you can't depend on good luck to carry you in poker. You can be the best player in the world and lose to a lesser player, not because he outplayed you, but because the cards fell in his favor.

To say that there is no such thing as a good gambler is just silly. Ask the best poker players in the world whether or not they are gamblers and whether or not an element of luck is involved. They will tell you that they are, and that there is. They'll also tell you that an element of skill is involved, and they are the best at it.

[Lex Luthor]

And yes, I've seen Rounders many times. I've seen Matt Damon make the claim that poker is a game of skill and that luck has no bearing on it. I've seen him talk about the World Series of Poker, make the claim that the same guys are at the final table every year, and ask "are they the luckiest guys in the world?".

The problem with that argument is that the same guys DON'T make it to the final table every year. It's rare for anyone to make it to the final table two years in a row.

[cabletech94]

Originally Posted by theelusiveeightrop

I thought card counting was only frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.

only if you finish........

[cosmo20002]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I've never figured out the fun of poker. It seems like it's reasonably easy to assess one's odds and draw cards accordingly, but if you get a terrible hand there's not much you can do. And the luck in drawing a hand is about 100 times more powerful than your skill in assessing the odds and drawing cards (which themselves will be luck).

So it seems like a really good player can occasionally know the odds and get lucky to turn a bad hand into a good hand, but luck still is the predominant factor by a large margin.

The skill is not just knowing your odds and the chances of improving your hand, but winning despite not having the best hand.

[cosmo20002]

Originally Posted by theelusiveeightrop

I thought card counting was only frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.

It's not illegal--card counting, that is. But the casino can basically tell you to leave for any reason. And if you are winning too much money from them, they can tell you to leave.