Re: SNR & everybody who claims that the non-Geno talent atop this draft is "garbage."

[Direckshun]

I recently listed several players that I felt are superior to Geno Smith, all things being equal (including positional value):

Originally Posted by Direckshun

1. OT Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M
2. DE/OLB Bjoern Werner, Florida State
3. DE/OLB Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
4. DE/DT Sheldon Richardson, Missouri
5. DT Star Lotulelei, Utah
6. OT Eric Fisher, Central Michigan
7. CB DeMarcus Milliner, Alabama
8. OT Lane Johnson, Oklahoma
9. DT Johnathan Hankins, Ohio State
10. OG Chance Warmack, Alabama
11. CB Johnathan Banks, Mississippi State
12. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon
13. S Kenny Vaccaro, Texas.

SNR responded by calling most of them "garbage":

Originally Posted by SNR

We're not drafting at #11 overall. We have the first overall pick.

Are any of those guys the best at their respective positions in their draft classes in the past 5 years?

No? How about 3 years?

TWO YEARS, BRO. Can you give me two goddamned years worth of OTs, DTs, OLBs, and CBs and say that any of those players are at the top of the position?

Well, let's take a look, shall we?

QBs taken in the Top 10 of the past five years:

2012: Luck, RG3, Tannehill
2011: Newton, Locker, Gabbert
2010: Bradford
2009: Stafford, Sanchez
2008: Matt Ryan

Top 10 OTs of the past five years:

2012: Kalil
2011: Tyron Smith
2010: Trent Williams, Russell Okung (Anthony Davis @ #11)
2009: Jason Smith, Andre Smith, Eugene Monroe
2008: Jake Long

Passrushers taken in the Top 10 of the past five years:

2012: none
2011: Von Miller, Aldon Smith (Watt @ #11)
2010: none
2009: none (Aaron Maybin @ #11)
2008: Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Derrick Harvey

DTs taken in the top 10 the past five years:

2012: none (Poe @ #11)
2011: Marcell Dareus
2010: Suh, Gerald McCoy, Tyson Alualu
2009: Tyson Jackson, BJ Raji
2008: Glenn Dorsey, Sedrick Ellis

(I don't care about CBs or OGs. You don't take them #1 overall.)

Now, the key here is to try to remember each of these players as prospects, not as the players we know they are now.

At QB, who was a worse prospect than Geno of the above players?

1. Luck
2-tie. RG3/Stafford
3. Ryan
4-tie. Bradford/Sanchez
5. Newton
6. Gabbert
7. Smith
8. Tannehill
9. Locker

At OT, who was a worse prospect than Joeckel, Fisher, or Lane Johnson?

The way I would have ordered them as prospects:

1. Long
2. Okung
3. Williams
4-tie. Joeckel/Kalil
5. Fisher
6. Jason Smith
7-tie. Andre Smith/Monroe/Lane Johnson
8. Tyron Smith

At passrusher, who was a worse prospect than Werner, Moore, or Jordan?

1. Miller
2. Chris Long
3. Aldon Smith
4-tie. Gholston/Werner
5. Moore
6. Harvey
7. Jordan

At DT, who was a worse prospect than Richardson or Hankins? (Star is apparently out of commission as a top 10 pick now.)

1. Suh
2. McCoy
3. Dorsey
4. Dareus
5. Raji
6. Richardson
7-tie. Ellis/Hankins
8. Tyson Jackson
9. Alualu

Now on to my broader point here:

This is how I would rank them as prospects as of now. Of course you could adjust your rankings all over the place.

But the myth that Geno Smith is on par with what we've seen in the past while the other three categories are horrendous nightmares compared to your "usual draft," is just that: a myth.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Peyton's Princess

I fail to see how a guy who basically started 1 year in college (Sanchez) was considered a better prospect than Geno Smith?

What are the scouts seeing in Geno that suggests he's not a top tier QB prospect?

It's not what they're seeing. It's what they're not seeing, namely Andrew Luck.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

you've proved our point

none of the talent this year would be in the top 5 of the last 5 years...unless you give them 'ties'

putting gabbert ahead of smith is pure nonsense

and none of this changes the central vapidity of your argument...reaching for mythological value (just rhetorical cover for playing it 'safe')...

but have fun passing on QBs for another decade, this value thing you've got going has served the chiefs well...

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

No, I'm responding to the ludicrus bullshit you threw my way, calling all of these prospects "garbage" in earnest.

They are legitimately on par with what we've had in drafts past in the top 10.

Fair point. If I may, though, I WAS half kidding. I thought it would be obvious the way I labeled each player a silly brand of garbage like I was playing a game of Duck Duck Goose.

In the meantime, though, my point still stands that none of the non-QBs this year are worthy of the #1 overall pick. I might STILL even argue that half of the guys on your list should be left out of the top 5 considerations in a "normal" draft class. The notable exceptions are the OTs, who for many stated reasons that have been discussed the past 3 months on this BB, should NOT be remotely touched by Kansas City.

[Mr_Tomahawk]

-------If we arent going to Draft Geno 1.1....

Resign Albert.

Trade for Foles.

Draft DeMarcus Milliner in the 1st.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

you've proved our point

none of the talent this year would be in the top 5 of the last 5 years...unless you give them 'ties'

putting gabbert ahead of smith is pure nonsense

and none of this changes the central vapidity of your argument...reaching for mythological value (just rhetorical cover for playing it 'safe')...

but have fun passing on QBs for another decade, this value thing you've got going has served the chiefs well...

Gabbert surprised almost everybody on this board when he slid to #10. The Jaguars trading for him was considered a huge success.

But it doesn't matter -- you can disagree with my rankings.

I'm not shitting on a Geno pick. I'm just saying the idea that he is the only sensible selection at #1 because all the other players are "garbage" is SNR, overplaying his hand.

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Please.

"A lot of question marks."

He would have been taken #1 overall by anybody. You're rewriting history.

He was one of the best prospects we've seen. There was literally no question he was the best player in that year's draft.

Geno Smith is just as strong of a QB prospect as Matt Stafford, and in some ways, he's a much safer one.

Now, if you wish to argue with me on that point, we can continue that in this thread or go somewhere else.

[Rasputin]

How the **** would you have Gabbert and Sanchez in front of Geno Smith??????????

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by SNR

Fair point. If I may, though, I WAS half kidding. I thought it would be obvious the way I labeled each player a silly brand of garbage like I was playing a game of Duck Duck Goose.

Welcome to rationality.

As of February 24th, 2013, we are officially having the conversation we need to be having.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by SNR

Matt Stafford had a lot of question marks coming out of college. But the Lions ignored that and chose to see him as a guy who would INSTANTLY dig them out of that shit hole if he turned out to be great.

Had they gone the safe route with Eugene Monroe, who knows how terrible they would be? It's possible we would have had problems with them in the race to the #1 overall pick this past season.

I'm not sure the Lions are the best evidence for your position. They won two more games than the Chiefs.

[Direckshun]

Originally Posted by SNR

Geno Smith is just as strong of a QB prospect as Matt Stafford, and in some ways, he's a much safer one.

Now, if you wish to argue with me on that point, we can continue that in this thread or go somewhere else.

Well, that's aside from my broader point, but it's a fun conversation so let's have it.

Stafford: absolutely huge body, bigger arm, played in a pro-style system, and was far more consistent than Geno

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by SNR

Matt Stafford had a lot of question marks coming out of college. But the Lions ignored that and chose to see him as a guy who would INSTANTLY dig them out of that shit hole if he turned out to be great.

Had they gone the safe route with Eugene Monroe, who knows how terrible they would be? It's possible we would have had problems with them in the race to the #1 overall pick this past season.

I always laugh when people compare Stafford and Geno. Stafford was a better prospect and it's not close.

[Hootie]

after that performance anything other than Geno at #1 is going to piss me right the **** off...

it literally makes no sense not to draft Geno Smith.

This shit franchise has the easiest ****ing decisions in the world to make. Re-sign Bowe, re-sign Albert...draft Smith.

We could literally forfeit the rest of our draft if we got Smith and I know this entire board would still be thrilled.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Your rankings are awful.

[RunKC]

If Stafford was at the combine right now, he'd be owning Geno. Better size for the position, pro-style success in the toughest conference with the best defenses.

You can not tell me that Geno would stand a ****ing chance against Stafford in the passing drills. Stafford has a ****ing cannon and solid accuracy.

[Crush]

Any non-QB is complete garbage as the no. 1 overall pick. Is Joeckel going to put the team on his back when the Chiefs are down 23-17 with 0:35 left in the game? How about Werner or Moore? Is Star's defective heart going to march the team down the field? We need a ****ing QB. Anything else is absolute garbage.