Army to Replace the 9mm pistol

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

I've NEVER liked the 9mm. You gotta use a whole clip to kill those Zombies in the ME. ! It's about time !

Army to replace 9mm pistol with more reliable gun packing better 'knock down’ power


By Joseph Weber
·Published July 12, 2014
·FoxNews.com

The Army wants to retire its supply of 9mm handguns and replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

Army officials say their inventory of more than 200,000 semi-automatic Beretta M9 and Sig Sauer M11 pistols has become outdated, worn out and needs to be replaced with an updated model that also offers more reliability and durability.


They also are considering new ammunition, which has sparked considerable debate among military and civilian weapons experts, too.

“Advancements in firearms have taken place since the M9 was adopted nearly 30 years ago, and it is our intent to take advantage of these advancements,” a military spokesperson told FoxNews.com on Friday. “The Army is seeking to replace the M9 and M11 pistols with a handgun that is more accurate, ergonomic, reliable and durable than the current pistol.”

Officials seem opposed to an update version of the Beretta M9, despite the company offering to make changes.

"We have submitted numerous changes or product improvements that really address a lot of the shortcomings that are either perceived or real," Beretta development manager Gabe Bailey recently told Military.com.

The Army has been considering a change for several years and on July 29 will hold a so-called “industry day” to brief gun manufacturers about the competition requirements for a winning proposal.

The Defense Department will reportedly buy more than 400,000 new pistols if and when officials agree on a new model.

Beyond the 9mm’s durability issues, which Army officials says are costing them too much in repairs, soldiers also say the pistol needs a more ergonomic grip, its safety device too often locks inadvertently and its open-slide bullet chamber allows in too much dirty, which results in jamming.

Still, the other big issue appears to be about the caliber of the new ammunition, considering most experts argue a person must be hit with several 9 mm rounds to be killed.

“We are not dictating a caliber during the competition,” the spokesperson said. “A vendor may submit multiple calibers of ammunition. However, the ammunition must exceed the performance of the current M882 9mm round.”

Among those likely to be considered in the Modular Handgun System competition are the .40 and .45 caliber rounds.

The argument against the .40 caliber round is that its heavier weight and stronger recoil causes excessive wear on a 9 mm pistol.

There have been no reports on how much the new weapons will cost, amid budget concerns. However, in September 2012, Beretta received a 5-year, $64 million firm-fixed-price contract for up to 100,000 of its M9 9mm pistols, according to Defense Industry Daily.

Following industry day, the Army will release a draft Request for Proposal, which seeks input from manufacturers.

The Army will then consider the manufacturers’ comments and modify the request, if necessary. It will then hold a final industry day before issuing a final proposal before the end of the year.

The next phase will essentially be a tryout and elimination process, which officials say will be based on technical results and will rely “heavily” on soldier feedback.

“One of the primary requirements for this weapon system is to provide the soldier with increased terminal performance,” the spokesperson said. “Feedback from soldiers in the field is that they want increased ‘knock-down power.’ And the MHS program will evaluate commercially available weapons that meet that requirement.”

[Eleazar]

Somebody likes Ruger eh?

[R8RFAN]

Originally Posted by Cochise

Somebody likes Ruger eh?

Guilty as charged

[R8RFAN]

[R8RFAN]

Don't know why I posted these pics in this thread but when I handle them I just get so excited

[LiveSteam]

Originally Posted by notorious

Isn't the 9x19 Parabellum the same as the 9mm Luger?

Yes as far as I know. My only expertise is in the 1911. After the 1911, I fall back to Walkers,navy's,old & new army coal burners. Those are my true love, along with the Garand actions

[Dunerdr]

Any legit rumors on who's greasing palms for these contracts?

[beach tribe]

Originally Posted by mac459

To apply a sniper for a shot over 1.5 miles is basically useless..to see a target at that distance is hard enough but to apply an effective shot is nearly impossible..longest shot in history is 1.53 miles..to use a sniper over that distance is going to be very hard to do..the target can easily move out of the way..it takes 5.7 seconds for the .338 Lapua to reach its target at 2700 yards..the rifling in the barrel has to be perfect..the bullet has to fire exactly how it is designed..not going even 5fps slower..the amount of effect your MOA has at 1.5 miles is unreal..MOA is basically you have to shoot at an inch or less at 100 yards..so at 2700 yards or 1.5 miles the MOA is 27 inches..if you are off 1 inch at 100 yards it will be 27 inches off at 2700.. since a torso-sized target measures approximately 18 inches wide and 36-inches high..the 27-inch group is 9 inches wider than the target..but well within the 36-inch vertical area..roughly it could be said that looking at a one MOA group size there’s about a 70% chance of striking the target at 2700 yards..if the rifle were grouping better..say around 7/10th of an inch..or 0.7 MOA..its 2700-yard group would measure 18.9 inches..assuming mechanical perfection and a perfect shooter with no consideration for crosswinds..I am unaware of any scope made anywhere in the world with enough elevation to make a 2700-yard shot..even with a 500-yard zero the .338 will impact 5311 inches low at 2700 feet..since one MOA equals 27 inches at 2700 yards, this means a shooter needs 196 MOA of elevation to hit at that distance. (5311 inches divided by 27 = 196 MOA)..the the bullet has an effect called plunging..just like firing downhill..at extreme distances a bullet’s steep plunge reduces the relative size of a target..think of it this way..let’s say you’re firing at a target at 100 yards which measures 36 inches high by 18 inches wide..648 square inches.at 300 yards or less your bullet flies fairly flat..so the target offers its entire 648-square-inch frontal area for impact.but when firing at 2700 yards..the angle of your bullet’s arc becomes very steep..so that the impact area shrinks considerably..I’d say with the bullet plunging down at 45 degrees..in relative terms that 648 square inches has shrunk by nearly one-half..at such a long distance..even a mild wind might make that shot impossible..and traveling so far that bullet may have to pass through multiple winds of varying direction and velocity..but say there’s just one wind and it’s only 5 miles-per-hour..at 2700 yards a 5 MPH 90-degree crosswind requires 244 inches of right or left compensation..if you were to dial that on a windage knob that’s not too bad..only 9 MOA or 36 clicks on a ¼ MOA target knob..if you needed to fire faster and used the horizontal mil scale to hold right or left, you would hold exactly 2.5 mils..with all of that its just easier to drop in mortors or send in a platoon..I don't see a real world application where a sniper would be used for anything at any distance over 2700 yards in the near future

Which is why they use the EXACTO and pop targets from over 4 miles away w/o having to use UAV resources.

[Perineum Ripper]

Originally Posted by beach tribe

Which is why they use the EXACTO and pop targets from over 4 miles away w/o having to use UAV resources.

Who is going to see the target

[BigBeauford]

They have also been considering a replacement for the M4, the PT Test, Humvee, uniform...I will believe it when it happens.

[Discuss Thrower]

XM8 in the hizhouse

[BigRichard]

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz

Those require a huge radar scope that won't work on a pistol.

Right now it does...

[bigjosh]

They should legitimately look into .357sig , what a gorgeous round of ammunition it is. Has the recoil of a 9mm and the stopping power of a .40sw

[Coyote]

Originally Posted by Dunerdr

Any legit rumors on who's greasing palms for these contracts?

'Legit" or not, it might help that the President of Colt was LtGen Keys USMC (ret) ("Mumbles" as we used to call him) with USMC decisions. Colt is/has been in corporate "transition" with it's leadership-to put it politely-1st link provides some background/details. Keys left in 2013.

Then again it might just be that they are an American company that can actually produce a quality product and deliver on time with a proven track record of military use weapons.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...fter-crisis#p5
http://www.colt.com/DesktopModules/B...hod=attachment

[penguinz]

Originally Posted by mac459

To apply a sniper for a shot over 1.5 miles is basically useless..to see a target at that distance is hard enough but to apply an effective shot is nearly impossible..longest shot in history is 1.53 miles..to use a sniper over that distance is going to be very hard to do..the target can easily move out of the way..it takes 5.7 seconds for the .338 Lapua to reach its target at 2700 yards..the rifling in the barrel has to be perfect..the bullet has to fire exactly how it is designed..not going even 5fps slower..the amount of effect your MOA has at 1.5 miles is unreal..MOA is basically you have to shoot at an inch or less at 100 yards..so at 2700 yards or 1.5 miles the MOA is 27 inches..if you are off 1 inch at 100 yards it will be 27 inches off at 2700.. since a torso-sized target measures approximately 18 inches wide and 36-inches high..the 27-inch group is 9 inches wider than the target..but well within the 36-inch vertical area..roughly it could be said that looking at a one MOA group size there’s about a 70% chance of striking the target at 2700 yards..if the rifle were grouping better..say around 7/10th of an inch..or 0.7 MOA..its 2700-yard group would measure 18.9 inches..assuming mechanical perfection and a perfect shooter with no consideration for crosswinds..I am unaware of any scope made anywhere in the world with enough elevation to make a 2700-yard shot..even with a 500-yard zero the .338 will impact 5311 inches low at 2700 feet..since one MOA equals 27 inches at 2700 yards, this means a shooter needs 196 MOA of elevation to hit at that distance. (5311 inches divided by 27 = 196 MOA)..the the bullet has an effect called plunging..just like firing downhill..at extreme distances a bullet’s steep plunge reduces the relative size of a target..think of it this way..let’s say you’re firing at a target at 100 yards which measures 36 inches high by 18 inches wide..648 square inches.at 300 yards or less your bullet flies fairly flat..so the target offers its entire 648-square-inch frontal area for impact.but when firing at 2700 yards..the angle of your bullet’s arc becomes very steep..so that the impact area shrinks considerably..I’d say with the bullet plunging down at 45 degrees..in relative terms that 648 square inches has shrunk by nearly one-half..at such a long distance..even a mild wind might make that shot impossible..and traveling so far that bullet may have to pass through multiple winds of varying direction and velocity..but say there’s just one wind and it’s only 5 miles-per-hour..at 2700 yards a 5 MPH 90-degree crosswind requires 244 inches of right or left compensation..if you were to dial that on a windage knob that’s not too bad..only 9 MOA or 36 clicks on a ¼ MOA target knob..if you needed to fire faster and used the horizontal mil scale to hold right or left, you would hold exactly 2.5 mils..with all of that its just easier to drop in mortors or send in a platoon..I don't see a real world application where a sniper would be used for anything at any distance over 2700 yards in the near future

WTF? Do you know that there is a key on the right side of your keyboard that will allow you to return to a new line and create a new paragraph?

[FishingRod]

I would think if you are down to your sidearm in a combat situation, your pretty effed regardless of which round you are missing the bad guys with.