Fire Bob Sutton

[petegz28]

That is all.

[OlineDline]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I still don't think Reid did anything wrong on that last drive. The Chiefs had just executed one of their most clutch, methodical drives of the year to take 14 point lead and a TERRIBLE penalty put them in the shadow of their goalposts.

Yes, he ran it on 1st down and it didn't work, but they didn't need to break one off there; they needed to gain 3 yards, keep the clock rolling and stay within range of the sticks. At that point the wealth of options available to Reid can be brought to bear. He HAS to keep that clock moving and he has had an interior line getting mauled the entire 2nd half (with Fisher doing very little to help on the left side).

Trying to push downfield there would've been a mistake. And frankly, on 3rd down they WERE looking downfield past the sticks and Wylie just got beat so badly, so quickly, that there was little that could be done.

With Erving AND LDT down, their interior line is a big big BIG problem. Especially with Watkins and his ability to generate space quickly or use his phsyicality to attack the ball. You're effectively left with Kelce at that point because Hill's routes require a little more time to develop and it's time we just don't have with that patchwork interior.

So they bracket the hell out of Kelce and keep Mahomes from having the time to find Hill. What the hell else would you have Reid do at that point?

Agreed. You HAVE to force the defense to use their TOs.
The penalty on the PR was unforgivable and for whatever reason seems to be a pandemic in the NFL. Christ why ANYONE ever takes a KO out of the endzone is beyond me.

The only thing I'd say, is based on the horrid officiating in the secondary (Sorenson and King both got dinged with horrific drive extending hold calls) I'd maybe have looked for a boot or waggle with the hopes of a) scramble b) completion c) defensive holding call.

[OlineDline]

Originally Posted by Jerm

The only thing I question is why we went away from the screens...we were killing them in the 1st half on those, esp. when they'd blitz.

That drive would've screamed for one IMO.

The Chargers stopped sending 5.

[suzzer99]

Originally Posted by OlineDline

Two questions?

1. How far back do NFL safeties go in 1?
2. Where do you put the extra defender you gain if you go 1 instead of 2?

You can bring them closer to try to stop medium passes. It's done all the time. They were too far back to help Fuller on a basic slant - even though his WR was well past the first down mark when he caught it.

[OlineDline]

Originally Posted by suzzer99

You can bring them closer to try to stop medium passes. It's done all the time. They were too far back to help Fuller on a basic slant - even though his WR was well past the first down mark when he caught it.

Fair enough.

I'd put that in the "let em score but we get the ball back" category.

Pre-snap, however, the QB sees he's got #1 on either side uncapped and oo-wee that's dangerous.

I still don't see how you cover Benjamin any better on 4th and 8. Fuller had him blanketed.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

But we've also seen reid refuse to run the ball in the second half. So who knows. I'm still not at all convinced hunt covers up the warts. Sutton needed to be exposed in this kind of big way. And Reid's offense can't be beyond reproach... I hate that we have this aggressive qb and Reid handcuffs him with game management bs when we get a lead.

If there's any bright side it's that you just hope Reid and hunt are seeing the massively negative response to the game and realize something. Must. Change.

They ran it once and threw it twice.

[suzzer99]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I still don't think Reid did anything wrong on that last drive. The Chiefs had just executed one of their most clutch, methodical drives of the year to take 14 point lead and a TERRIBLE penalty put them in the shadow of their goalposts.

Yes, he ran it on 1st down and it didn't work, but they didn't need to break one off there; they needed to gain 3 yards, keep the clock rolling and stay within range of the sticks. At that point the wealth of options available to Reid can be brought to bear. He HAS to keep that clock moving and he has had an interior line getting mauled the entire 2nd half (with Fisher doing very little to help on the left side).

Trying to push downfield there would've been a mistake. And frankly, on 3rd down they WERE looking downfield past the sticks and Wylie just got beat so badly, so quickly, that there was little that could be done.

With Erving AND LDT down, their interior line is a big big BIG problem. Especially with Watkins and his ability to generate space quickly or use his phsyicality to attack the ball. You're effectively left with Kelce at that point because Hill's routes require a little more time to develop and it's time we just don't have with that patchwork interior.

So they bracket the hell out of Kelce and keep Mahomes from having the time to find Hill. What the hell else would you have Reid do at that point?

The Chargers and maybe refs bailed us out on that last scoring drive. We weren't going anywhere w/o the penalties.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by OlineDline

Two questions?

1. How far back do NFL safeties go in 1?
2. Where do you put the extra defender you gain if you go 1 instead of 2?

15 yards? 10-15 in a standard Cover 2 depending on how you're using your LBs?

The problem with us using any Cover 1 is that Parker's too slow to play it any more and too unbelievably chickenshit to get down in the box (and Sorensen is also too slow to play the Single high).

So frankly, as much as I like Cover 1 for it's ability manage the middle of the field and slow down the opposing run game, I think Sutton has enough film at this point to realize that he just damn near can't play it. And I hate that because I think it could be a HUGE part of what we do with that secondary. I just think it's prone to abuse given the personnel deficiencies.

Sutton's response to that is to exacerbate them by playing the safety at 20 yards of (and put Ron Parker in the box...I have absolutely no response to that). Worse still is that those safeties play 20 yards back and their first instinct is to backpedal.

And I recognize that he doesn't always do it; but that's why I said they needed SOME spark at some point. I'm not arguing send 7 on every play - they don't need to be doing that against a smart veteran passer. But send some extra rushers and/or get your safeties down a little deeper every few plays. Do something to get these guys playing downhill. Instead he was more likely to just give up a 12 yard pass underneath than he was to try to push the issue at all.

Watch that second half again - everything is reacting. Everything is backing up. It was some kind of bizarre quasi-prevent in a half that was often a 1 score game. And it completely sucked the energy out of the D. Defense is about passion and energy and simply looking to get after it but when they played a bombshell defense for a half, those guys just started going through the motions.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by OlineDline

Fair enough.

I'd put that in the "let em score but we get the ball back" category.

Pre-snap, however, the QB sees he's got #1 on either side uncapped and oo-wee that's dangerous.

I still don't see how you cover Benjamin any better on 4th and 8. Fuller had him blanketed.

Yeah, he made a great throw there. But damn man, I just hate leaving the MOF that open. I'd make him try and throw one over the top.

[Sweet Daddy Hate]

Originally Posted by OlineDline

That's all well and good, but there's a pretty finite scheme realm in the NFL.

When you get trips open, there's only so many ****ing things you can do. People seem to think there's some guru shit that allows "exotic" and "creative" things to happen.

You want exotic? Get three or four world class DBs and just play ****ing man and blitz your tits off.

Good luck with that.

You give me three man DBs that are elite, I can be an NFL DC too!

Will you let your players remain soft and stupid by and large as well?

[OlineDline]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

15 yards? 10-15 in a standard Cover 2 depending on how you're using your LBs?

The problem with us using any Cover 1 is that Parker's too slow to play it any more and too unbelievably chickenshit to get down in the box (and Sorensen is also too slow to play the Single high).

So frankly, as much as I like Cover 1 for it's ability manage the middle of the field and slow down the opposing run game, I think Sutton has enough film at this point to realize that he just damn near can't play it. And I hate that because I think it could be a HUGE part of what we do with that secondary. I just think it's prone to abuse given the personnel deficiencies.

Sutton's response to that is to exacerbate them by playing the safety at 20 yards of (and put Ron Parker in the box...I have absolutely no response to that). Worse still is that those safeties play 20 yards back and their first instinct is to backpedal.

And I recognize that he doesn't always do it; but that's why I said they needed SOME spark at some point. I'm not arguing send 7 on every play - they don't need to be doing that against a smart veteran passer. But send some extra rushers and/or get your safeties down a little deeper every few plays. Do something to get these guys playing downhill. Instead he was more likely to just give up a 12 yard pass underneath than he was to try to push the issue at all.

Watch that second half again - everything is reacting. Everything is backing up. It was some kind of bizarre quasi-prevent in a half that was often a 1 score game. And it completely sucked the energy out of the D. Defense is about passion and energy and simply looking to get after it but when they played a bombshell defense for a half, those guys just started going through the motions.

Cover 1 (true man 1) those guys are sometimes at 30 on the snap. If they're up it's because it's straight man and they're just showing 1.

Problem with man is you have to have guys that can play it. Doesn't seem to be the case currently.

So you're left with zone concepts and 1 or 2 man.

It sucks but ultimately you have to make plays.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Jerm

The only thing I question is why we went away from the screens...we were killing them in the 1st half on those, esp. when they'd blitz.

That drive would've screamed for one IMO.

I'd have maybe tried some kind of middle-screen at some point but I'll be frank - we've messed more of those up than we've succeeded with of late. The timing on those is so difficult that once there's tape on them, it's not hard to see them developing, whack somebody and throw the whole thing out of balance.

They were getting heat with base personnel so it's hard to do those RB screens in the flats at that point. And frankly, I'd imagine that Bosa and Ingram had started to feel for them a little more as well. You can only do those so many times before the DEs start to sink a little more on their rush. At that point it's a pick-6 waiting to happen.

I think Reid was smart to get away from those while the getting was good. But I will concede that a middle-screen that could've maybe taken advantage of some of the ass-kickings we were getting in the interior would've helped. It's just hard to say if formation would've given those away, especially when we were facing 2nd and 13. If you come out lined up in the sort of 'tight' formation you'd need to be in for one of those to be executed, I think the D will see that coming.

Which is why I say they just needed to pick up a few yards on 1st down. You can come out there in a big formation with twin tights on 2nd and 7 and the defense will still have to respect run and pass. Because of that, you have play action available to you AND you have the middle screen game.

The penalty and completely busted 1st down play wrecked that drive. Reid had nothing to do with the penalty and the 1st down play was an easily defensible one where his line simply got overwhelmed.

[OlineDline]

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Hate

Will you let your players remain soft and stupid by and large as well?

I'll feed 'em nails and make 'em shit lead.

Oklahoma drill EVERY DAY!

Then a steady dose of motivational speeches where I spit a lot and jut out my chin.

But if you give me a couple dead ass lock down DBs I'll have the best defense in the league.

[OlineDline]

Originally Posted by O.city

Yeah, he made a great throw there. But damn man, I just hate leaving the MOF that open. I'd make him try and throw one over the top.

Watch Gates on that play. He was WAO.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'd have maybe tried some kind of middle-screen at some point but I'll be frank - we've messed more of those up than we've succeeded with of late. The timing on those is so difficult that once there's tape on them, it's not hard to see them developing, whack somebody and throw the whole thing out of balance.

They were getting heat with base personnel so it's hard to do those RB screens in the flats at that point. And frankly, I'd imagine that Bosa and Ingram had started to feel for them a little more as well. You can only do those so many times before the DEs start to sink a little more on their rush. At that point it's a pick-6 waiting to happen.

I think Reid was smart to get away from those while the getting was good. But I will concede that a middle-screen that could've maybe taken advantage of some of the ass-kickings we were getting in the interior would've helped. It's just hard to say if formation would've given those away, especially when we were facing 2nd and 13. If you come out lined up in the sort of 'tight' formation you'd need to be in for one of those to be executed, I think the D will see that coming.

Which is why I say they just needed to pick up a few yards on 1st down. You can come out there in a big formation with twin tights on 2nd and 7 and the defense will still have to respect run and pass. Because of that, you have play action available to you AND you have the middle screen game.

The penalty and completely busted 1st down play wrecked that drive. Reid had nothing to do with the penalty and the 1st down play was an easily defensible one where his line simply got overwhelmed.

I know you've gotta keep the clock moving, but on the 3rd down play I'd have liked to see them max protect and just throw one deep to Hill or Benjamin. Maybe they catch it, maybe it's a PI, maybe it's picked.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by OlineDline

Cover 1 (true man 1) those guys are sometimes at 30 on the snap. If they're up it's because it's straight man and they're just showing 1.

Problem with man is you have to have guys that can play it. Doesn't seem to be the case currently.

So you're left with zone concepts and 1 or 2 man.

It sucks but ultimately you have to make plays.

If your safety is 30 yards deep in a Cover 1 at the snap, you'd better have the best damn corners in the world or be facing a 3rd and 22. Nobody's running their single-high that deep - he serves no purpose. And if they do, I'm betting they aren't standing flat or going backwards at the snap.

We're starting guys 20 yards deep and then having them stand there or move backwards. What the hell good is help over the top when you're 20-25 yards back and 15 yards can slit your throat? Especially when we know we have corners that are game but simply not 'man coverage' talented. These guys cannot be asked to hang like that; it's simply not a reasonable request. Fuller can do it but Nelson and especially Scandrick are completely out of their depth being stuck in man with help 20 yards back.

And then you have ILBs that run in quicksand so you can't even run an effective zone.

This team with this personnel can absolutely not be putting its safeties that far back. The amount of field it's leaving open gives nobody a chance to do the job. And if your answer is that Parker and Sorensen can't play safety if they're not 20 yards back, then you throw Lucas and Murray out there and try again.

Or you rush 5 and pray for a breakdown.

You don't just throw your hands up and walk off the field content that you made them do it in 6 plays instead of 4.