Life Something of a moral dilemma - Page 7

Wallcrawler · 11-15-2014, 10:38 PM

So, Im in position to take over the reigns of the store Im currently working in. Its a very small staff, three of us managers and four part time employees.

Things go pretty well most of the time, despite some maturity issues with my direct supervisor. He's only 26, and as far as the business goes, he knows literally everything. Theres no task or problem or issue that he cannot readily resolve within a few minutes.

However, when it comes to actually leading a team of people, this guy is ASS. For real. Schedule changes with little to no notice, making people stay longer so that he can leave early, calling people in early so that he can go home, and being a dick in general about requests for time off even if they are the required two weeks in advance.

So we have a part timer who does a decent job, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the effort is there. He's decided that we are going to part ways with this person, but Im going to be the one to cut the ties.

Over the phone.

To me, this is complete bullshit. The guy being fired, we'll call him "Joe" is only being fired because he's called the boss out on multiple offenses of laziness, both just hanging out in back while on a shift, as well as the multiple counts of leaving early. Joe's broken plans repeatedly, without complaint, to come in early so Boss could leave early. No emergency, just tired of being there.

The first thing I tell Boss is that its chickenshit to fire someone over the phone. If Im going to take your ability to provide for your family from you, Im going to at least have the sac to look you in the face when I do it, and tell you why.

Boss gives zero ****s what I think, or what my view is. He's the boss, Im the subordinate, and my instructions are to call Joe in the morning and tell him that his services are no longer required.

If I refuse, Ill be documented for insubordination and my position to take over the business will take a substantial hit, because the third manager "Yes Man" is a bit spineless when it comes to taking a stand on anything, and simply does what he's told without question.

Now, I have no problem with Joe. Joe could be faster, and smarter, but Joe is always on time, always covers shifts when needed, and always works 100% of the time he is present. In short, dude's not perfect but he's doing everything he can at all times. That goes a long way in my book.

I don't really know what I should do. I mean I want to tell Boss to go **** himself and if he wants to be a chickenshit and fire Joe over the phone for being called out as a lazy **** from time to time, that's his problem and not mine.

On the other hand, I could lose my position to Yes Man and potentially screw myself out of a nice pay increase, perks, and better job security when Boss transfers in June.

Going over Boss' head is out of the question, as the District Manager and Boss are aquainted outside of work and have known each other for about 5 years.

So my choice is to call up Joe in the morning and tell him that he's fired and not be able to tell him exactly why he's being fired, or to tell my Boss to **** off and put my future at risk.

Its such a shit thing to do to someone, especially so close to Christmas.

Abba-Dabba · 11-16-2014, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

Now I see how far off we are in understanding. Just for clarification, as I have said before: I don't interview then fire. That is not my position. That is operation's position to decide to fire after my interview, but I feel you should look the man in the eyes and tell him he is fired. You looked him in the eyes and told him he was hired, why the discrepancy?

Why is it needed to look him in the eye? Trying to prolong the inevitable?

You don't have to look anyone in the eye to hire them.

**mdchiefsfan** · 11-16-2014, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

Why is it needed to look him in the eye? Trying to prolong the inevitable?

You don't have to look anyone in the eye to hire them.

Customary traditions. Respect.

Wallcrawler · 11-16-2014, 03:07 AM

Well. That escalated quickly.

Ive decided that Im not doing it. Im not firing him just because I was told to do it, and in a chickenshit manner the likes of calling him up and saying he's fired.

If Boss wants him gone, he can do it. He's the one with the problem. If I get doc'd for insubordination, so be it. Those forms DO go to corporate. I wont be losing my job, and a full explanation of the circumstances of my "insubordination" will be given and someone outside of the "Good ol Boy Network" will get to take a look at what's going on.

Ill provide that information when I deliver my decision, and then let the chips fall where they may.

Joe will probably still get fired, even though it's bullshit, but I wont be the one doing it.

**mdchiefsfan** · 11-16-2014, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

Why is it needed to look him in the eye? Trying to prolong the inevitable?

You don't have to look anyone in the eye to hire them.

Customary traditions. Respect.

**TimBone** · 11-16-2014, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallcrawler

Well. That escalated quickly.

Ive decided that Im not doing it. Im not firing him just because I was told to do it, and in a chickenshit manner the likes of calling him up and saying he's fired.

If Boss wants him gone, he can do it. He's the one with the problem. If I get doc'd for insubordination, so be it. Those forms DO go to corporate. I wont be losing my job, and a full explanation of the circumstances of my "insubordination" will be given and someone outside of the "Good ol Boy Network" will get to take a look at what's going on.

Ill provide that information when I deliver my decision, and then let the chips fall where they may.

Joe will probably still get fired, even though it's bullshit, but I wont be the one doing it.

Good man.

**J Diddy** · 11-16-2014, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallcrawler

Well. That escalated quickly.

Ive decided that Im not doing it. Im not firing him just because I was told to do it, and in a chickenshit manner the likes of calling him up and saying he's fired.

If Boss wants him gone, he can do it. He's the one with the problem. If I get doc'd for insubordination, so be it. Those forms DO go to corporate. I wont be losing my job, and a full explanation of the circumstances of my "insubordination" will be given and someone outside of the "Good ol Boy Network" will get to take a look at what's going on.

Ill provide that information when I deliver my decision, and then let the chips fall where they may.

Joe will probably still get fired, even though it's bullshit, but I wont be the one doing it.

Kudos. It's not easy to do the right thing.

Earthling · 11-16-2014, 06:24 AM

Office politics. One of multiple reasons I started my own company.

kcgizmo · 11-16-2014, 06:53 AM

My 2 cents
I think you are looking at this all wrong, it is not about Joe or the company it is about you. I think it’s a thing called integrity. How do you want your employees to see you? As a person that will not stand up for them, or a leader that will always do what’s right.

Your call

Nickel D · 11-16-2014, 08:11 AM

Joe should have had the street smarts to know that he was risking his job when he refused to comply with the selfish demands of the boss. So when you call to notify of him of termination (and you will!), you simply also inform him that the boss instructed you to do the firing and that he also insisted that it be done over the phone.

Lesson you should have learned by now: You'll always have your job by NEVER answering your phone.

**Bwana** · 11-16-2014, 08:18 AM

I got jerked around by my company about two weeks ago, got pissed off and starting looking. Within two days I had several offers and negotiated with a great new company, I start December 1st. The owner of the new company would have damn near given me his house to come to work for him. I told him what I needed to come over (which was the moon) and he gave me more than I asked for, much more. He even threw in 2 instant bonus weeks of vacation (paid) so I could take my annual trip to Belize in Feb. I got more respect from him in 5 minutes than I did from my current employer in 5 years. I will walk through fire for this guy and make him a lot of money.

I'm going into work tomorrow and putting in my two weeks notice. What I really want to do is walk in, bounce the truck keys off the owners chest and say "consider that my resignation slap dick," but as hard as it is, I'm going to take the high road and offer up my two weeks.

They will likely get butt hurt and tell me to just leave, but I'm good with that and hope that's the way things go down. I wouldn't mind the two weeks to get things done around the house and if I'm there for two weeks with nothing to lose, things could get a little western.

It's best just to stick a fork in this one, it's done.

I've already talked to my top customers about the move in person one on one and they know why I'm hitting the road and that's all I really cared about. I will be selling to all of them with my new company in two weeks. My soon to be former company will be out in the cold holding their Johnson's trying to figure out where several million dollars worth of pending orders went. I won't lie it's going to be a great Monday.

COchief · 11-16-2014, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

I cut throats because I believe there is nothing wrong by not wasting a persons time, afford them opportunity to deal with the intial shock of the firing privately in their own homes. Rather than calling them into a workplace surrounded by their peers to may be have an emotional moment? That makes me the asshole? That makes you the bigger man? Bullshit.

What ever you have learned about how to treat people in life's trying times is ****ed up. Nobody likes that shit to happen surrounded by peers or in public of any sort. That shit can be embarrassing for the former employee.

It's you that are the tool.

It's been enjoyable watching the Human Resources clerk trying to act like a grown up business person in this thread. Enjoy your shit career choice that you chose because you're a feeble-minded nosey piece of human garbage. Seriously, whenever I encounter a male in HR I can't help but stifle the snickers and wonder why any man would choose to be surrounded by petty women. Now get to work on those reference checks Sally.

The real bottom line:

OP is risking his neck for someone that chose his own fate, the employee that is going to be fired made his choice when he talked shit to the person that can and apparently will fire him, all bullshit surrounding the issue aside. If someone is your boss and has the power to fire you, you keep your mouth shut or you keep your job. He made his choice. That simple.

**mdchiefsfan** · 11-16-2014, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Diddy

Kudos. It's not easy to do the right thing.

This.

58-4ever · 11-16-2014, 09:13 AM

Meet the guy for coffee somewhere and tell him in person. If you really believe he put in effort, tell him what he's done wrong too and give him honest feedback.

**Iowanian** · 11-16-2014, 09:13 AM

I was prepared to compose a post discussing business ethics, treating employees how you would want to be treated, firing via text/phone call being a douche/cowardly thing to do.....and that your boss is a putz. Not sure I'd want to pin my long term hopes on a comany that allows people to be treated that way........in th emean time, express to Skippy why you don't feel this is the right approach, and then do it. Let the guy know you don't agree with the method when you call, but let's face it....he already knows your boss is a douche.

That potential post was set asside because from this day forward, I will be reading 2 posters on this site in an entirely new voice.

CAN'T YOU SEE I'M ON MY F'ING LUNCH BREAK!!!!

58-4ever · 11-16-2014, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

You don't have to look anyone in the eye to hire them.

I do.

11-15-2014, 10:38 PM
Wallcrawler How tall is this thing? Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ground 0 for enema of US. Casino cash: $4242912	Something of a moral dilemma So, Im in position to take over the reigns of the store Im currently working in. Its a very small staff, three of us managers and four part time employees. Things go pretty well most of the time, despite some maturity issues with my direct supervisor. He's only 26, and as far as the business goes, he knows literally everything. Theres no task or problem or issue that he cannot readily resolve within a few minutes. However, when it comes to actually leading a team of people, this guy is ASS. For real. Schedule changes with little to no notice, making people stay longer so that he can leave early, calling people in early so that he can go home, and being a dick in general about requests for time off even if they are the required two weeks in advance. So we have a part timer who does a decent job, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the effort is there. He's decided that we are going to part ways with this person, but Im going to be the one to cut the ties. Over the phone. To me, this is complete bullshit. The guy being fired, we'll call him "Joe" is only being fired because he's called the boss out on multiple offenses of laziness, both just hanging out in back while on a shift, as well as the multiple counts of leaving early. Joe's broken plans repeatedly, without complaint, to come in early so Boss could leave early. No emergency, just tired of being there. The first thing I tell Boss is that its chickenshit to fire someone over the phone. If Im going to take your ability to provide for your family from you, Im going to at least have the sac to look you in the face when I do it, and tell you why. Boss gives zero **s what I think, or what my view is. He's the boss, Im the subordinate, and my instructions are to call Joe in the morning and tell him that his services are no longer required. If I refuse, Ill be documented for insubordination and my position to take over the business will take a substantial hit, because the third manager "Yes Man" is a bit spineless when it comes to taking a stand on anything, and simply does what he's told without question. Now, I have no problem with Joe. Joe could be faster, and smarter, but Joe is always on time, always covers shifts when needed, and always works 100% of the time he is present. In short, dude's not perfect but he's doing everything he can at all times. That goes a long way in my book. I don't really know what I should do. I mean I want to tell Boss to go himself and if he wants to be a chickenshit and fire Joe over the phone for being called out as a lazy from time to time, that's his problem and not mine. On the other hand, I could lose my position to Yes Man and potentially screw myself out of a nice pay increase, perks, and better job security when Boss transfers in June. Going over Boss' head is out of the question, as the District Manager and Boss are aquainted outside of work and have known each other for about 5 years. So my choice is to call up Joe in the morning and tell him that he's fired and not be able to tell him exactly why he's being fired, or to tell my Boss to ** off and put my future at risk. Its such a shit thing to do to someone, especially so close to Christmas.
Posts: 6,932

11-16-2014, 03:07 AM	#93
Wallcrawler How tall is this thing? Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ground 0 for enema of US. Casino cash: $4242912	Well. That escalated quickly. Ive decided that Im not doing it. Im not firing him just because I was told to do it, and in a chickenshit manner the likes of calling him up and saying he's fired. If Boss wants him gone, he can do it. He's the one with the problem. If I get doc'd for insubordination, so be it. Those forms DO go to corporate. I wont be losing my job, and a full explanation of the circumstances of my "insubordination" will be given and someone outside of the "Good ol Boy Network" will get to take a look at what's going on. Ill provide that information when I deliver my decision, and then let the chips fall where they may. Joe will probably still get fired, even though it's bullshit, but I wont be the one doing it. __________________ She did not open her eyes this morning. I don't know what else to say.
Posts: 6,932

11-16-2014, 06:24 AM	#97
Earthling MVP Join Date: Apr 2001 Casino cash: $10008447	Office politics. One of multiple reasons I started my own company. __________________ AND SOMETIMES IT'S NOT SO EASY ESPECIALLY WHEN YOUR ONLY FRIEND TALKS SEES LOOKS AND FEELS LIKE YOU AND YOU DO JUST THE SAME AS HIM -Jiimi Hendrix
Posts: 5,995

11-16-2014, 06:53 AM	#98
kcgizmo Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Dallas Tx Casino cash: $9155154	My 2 cents I think you are looking at this all wrong, it is not about Joe or the company it is about you. I think it’s a thing called integrity. How do you want your employees to see you? As a person that will not stand up for them, or a leader that will always do what’s right. Your call __________________ Go Chiefs
Posts: 616

11-16-2014, 08:11 AM	#99
Nickel D Veteran Join Date: Mar 2011 Casino cash: $11006781	Joe should have had the street smarts to know that he was risking his job when he refused to comply with the selfish demands of the boss. So when you call to notify of him of termination (and you will!), you simply also inform him that the boss instructed you to do the firing and that he also insisted that it be done over the phone. Lesson you should have learned by now: You'll always have your job by NEVER answering your phone.
Posts: 1,321

11-16-2014, 08:18 AM	#100
Bwana It's Five O'Clock Somewhere Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Billings, Montana Casino cash: $2139553647	I got jerked around by my company about two weeks ago, got pissed off and starting looking. Within two days I had several offers and negotiated with a great new company, I start December 1st. The owner of the new company would have damn near given me his house to come to work for him. I told him what I needed to come over (which was the moon) and he gave me more than I asked for, much more. He even threw in 2 instant bonus weeks of vacation (paid) so I could take my annual trip to Belize in Feb. I got more respect from him in 5 minutes than I did from my current employer in 5 years. I will walk through fire for this guy and make him a lot of money. I'm going into work tomorrow and putting in my two weeks notice. What I really want to do is walk in, bounce the truck keys off the owners chest and say "consider that my resignation slap dick," but as hard as it is, I'm going to take the high road and offer up my two weeks. They will likely get butt hurt and tell me to just leave, but I'm good with that and hope that's the way things go down. I wouldn't mind the two weeks to get things done around the house and if I'm there for two weeks with nothing to lose, things could get a little western. It's best just to stick a fork in this one, it's done. I've already talked to my top customers about the move in person one on one and they know why I'm hitting the road and that's all I really cared about. I will be selling to all of them with my new company in two weeks. My soon to be former company will be out in the cold holding their Johnson's trying to figure out where several million dollars worth of pending orders went. I won't lie it's going to be a great Monday. __________________ Adventure is dangerous....but monotony can kill you.
Posts: 69,739

11-16-2014, 09:13 AM	#103
58-4ever The Collective Unconscious Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The OP Casino cash: $9520422	Meet the guy for coffee somewhere and tell him in person. If you really believe he put in effort, tell him what he's done wrong too and give him honest feedback.
Posts: 10,425

11-16-2014, 09:13 AM	#104
Iowanian Supporter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Utopia Casino cash: $4768454	I was prepared to compose a post discussing business ethics, treating employees how you would want to be treated, firing via text/phone call being a douche/cowardly thing to do.....and that your boss is a putz. Not sure I'd want to pin my long term hopes on a comany that allows people to be treated that way........in th emean time, express to Skippy why you don't feel this is the right approach, and then do it. Let the guy know you don't agree with the method when you call, but let's face it....he already knows your boss is a douche. That potential post was set asside because from this day forward, I will be reading 2 posters on this site in an entirely new voice. CAN'T YOU SEE I'M ON MY F'ING LUNCH BREAK!!!!
Posts: 61,528