Something of a moral dilemma

[Wallcrawler]

So, Im in position to take over the reigns of the store Im currently working in. Its a very small staff, three of us managers and four part time employees.

Things go pretty well most of the time, despite some maturity issues with my direct supervisor. He's only 26, and as far as the business goes, he knows literally everything. Theres no task or problem or issue that he cannot readily resolve within a few minutes.

However, when it comes to actually leading a team of people, this guy is ASS. For real. Schedule changes with little to no notice, making people stay longer so that he can leave early, calling people in early so that he can go home, and being a dick in general about requests for time off even if they are the required two weeks in advance.

So we have a part timer who does a decent job, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the effort is there. He's decided that we are going to part ways with this person, but Im going to be the one to cut the ties.

Over the phone.

To me, this is complete bullshit. The guy being fired, we'll call him "Joe" is only being fired because he's called the boss out on multiple offenses of laziness, both just hanging out in back while on a shift, as well as the multiple counts of leaving early. Joe's broken plans repeatedly, without complaint, to come in early so Boss could leave early. No emergency, just tired of being there.

The first thing I tell Boss is that its chickenshit to fire someone over the phone. If Im going to take your ability to provide for your family from you, Im going to at least have the sac to look you in the face when I do it, and tell you why.

Boss gives zero ****s what I think, or what my view is. He's the boss, Im the subordinate, and my instructions are to call Joe in the morning and tell him that his services are no longer required.

If I refuse, Ill be documented for insubordination and my position to take over the business will take a substantial hit, because the third manager "Yes Man" is a bit spineless when it comes to taking a stand on anything, and simply does what he's told without question.

Now, I have no problem with Joe. Joe could be faster, and smarter, but Joe is always on time, always covers shifts when needed, and always works 100% of the time he is present. In short, dude's not perfect but he's doing everything he can at all times. That goes a long way in my book.

I don't really know what I should do. I mean I want to tell Boss to go **** himself and if he wants to be a chickenshit and fire Joe over the phone for being called out as a lazy **** from time to time, that's his problem and not mine.

On the other hand, I could lose my position to Yes Man and potentially screw myself out of a nice pay increase, perks, and better job security when Boss transfers in June.


Going over Boss' head is out of the question, as the District Manager and Boss are aquainted outside of work and have known each other for about 5 years.

So my choice is to call up Joe in the morning and tell him that he's fired and not be able to tell him exactly why he's being fired, or to tell my Boss to **** off and put my future at risk.

Its such a shit thing to do to someone, especially so close to Christmas.

[Abba-Dabba]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

Get a job with a company that has a loss prevention dept, steal, and it will make a whole lot more sense.

Yeah, that isn't going to happen. My security world has moved past retail

Get some balls and do what your boss wants you to do. Calling someone to fire them is a moral issue in management you are just going to have to get the **** over if you want to move up, as you say you do.

Don't take this wrong or anything. But you are not management material I would look for if a call to inform a employee the are fired is causing you a moral issue. How long have you been in management and how many people have you fired in the past?

[Abba-Dabba]

Since you aren't going to answer the question I will just give you what I think you are. You are security guard in a mall or retail setting. Contract, used and abused. Mediocre pay at best with benefits that are barely meh.

How many security and/or criminal justice courses have you taken?

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

Yeah, that isn't going to happen. My security world has moved past retail

Get some balls and do what your boss wants you to do. Calling someone to fire them is a moral issue in management you are just going to have to get the **** over if you want to move up, as you say you do.

Don't take this wrong or anything. But you are not management material I would look for if a call to inform a employee the are fired is causing you a moral issue. How long have you been in management and how many people have you fired in the past?

I'm quite glad I don't have shit to prove to you, because if that is your approach I would want nothing to do with you. I would rather have someone working for me that can take the moral high ground and go against the flow for what is right, but if what you are looking for is a lame shit that just follows orders, that speaks volumes about your morality. Good luck with that.

[Abba-Dabba]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

I'm quite glad I don't have shit to prove to you, because if that is your approach I would want nothing to do with you. I would rather have someone working for me that can take the moral high ground and go against the flow for what is right, but if what you are looking for is a lame shit that just follows orders, that speaks volumes about your morality. Good luck with that.

It's business. Not morals. Business is Business.

You can ignore me all you want with whatever sort of moral superiority issue you have with me. But the problem isn't with me, your boss, or even the employee. It's you. You are the problem. Good luck moving up.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

It's business. Not morals. Business is Business.

You can ignore me all you want with whatever sort of moral superiority issue you have with me. But the problem isn't with me, your boss, or even the employee. It's you. You are the problem. Good luck moving up.

I've been quite successful moving up with the way I have handled my business. It is you who is the problem. The roll over douche that can't find his balls to stand up for what he believes in because he believe his balls are the one's in his mouth, which belong to his boss. It takes balls to be successful, but it takes morality to gain the respect of your subordinates. It's a business approach that many are too scared to take and I can understand why you feel this way, but just because you have allegedly achieved some success with this approach, doesn't mean it's the only way to achieve it.

Rot in Hell, ****er.

[Smed1065]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

The question lies here: do you really want to work with someone like this? I don't know what kind of job it is or how the benefits weigh out, but if this guy is that much of a tool I would happily take the documentation while looking for a different job. It's only a matter of time until he views you as a threat and plots your demise as well.

That is your option, or you could take this matter above his head.

That/This
I stayed once for the benefits young and left with a tude less than 18 months later.

[Abba-Dabba]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

I've been quite successful moving up with the way I have handled my business. It is you who is the problem. The roll over douche that can't find his balls to stand up for what he believes in because he believe his balls are the one's in his mouth, which belong to his boss. It takes balls to be successful, but it takes morality to gain the respect of your subordinates. It's a business approach that many are too scared to take and I can understand why you feel this way, but just because you have allegedly achieved some success with this approach, doesn't mean it's the only way to achieve it.

Rot in Hell, ****er.

Yeah, you're way too emotional. I have achieved some success, not where I want to be. But the proverbial peak has hit, so to speak where I am at right now. Time to move to a larger market TBH.

But I have earned the little success I have presently because I worked hard for it. Not on how I fire someone.

[Abba-Dabba]

Subordinates are there for the same thing you are. A paycheck.

I have no problem keeping my employees satisfied. To me it shows the professionalism of a person if they can perform just as well standing next to someone they like, as well as someone they don't like.

You are looking for some kind of utopia in the workplace that doesn't exist. Not everyone is going to have your respect, not everyone is going to like you. Get over it. You are management now. That is just the way it is. I know, I know. Every new incoming manager has these dreams of everyone will just fall in line with their program and everyone will like and respect one another. But it never happens. It's naive to think it does.

[TomBarndtsTwin]

Tell your boss to go **** himself, but before doing so set up a specialized computer program that diverts fractions of cents from each transaction your company makes and re-directs it to a dummy account in, say, Switzerland or something like that and then sit back and reap the rewards . . . .

Consider it severance.

[Kaepernick]

Fire Joe. Re-hire Joe after Boss is gone and you are the boss.

Other than that, there aren't enough details about pay and longevity and your career plans to know if it is worth the risk being insubordinate. It is usually not a good idea but if you are working at MacDonalds, I'm not sure how long you are going to be there that this matters. If you are gunning for 7 figure paid CEO of a fortune 500 company, you may not want to risk killing your career.

From the first few pages to the thread, I have no clue how transient this job is for you. Are you 40 and you will be doing this job you have had your heart set on until you are 60? Fire Joe, hire him back later. Are you 27 and this is a temp job on your way to bigger things, then you can probably kiss off boss because this isn't the end all anyway.

From your first few pages, I have no clue how important this job is to you as a lifelong career dream.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

Yeah, you're way too emotional. I have achieved some success, not where I want to be. But the proverbial peak has hit, so to speak where I am at right now. Time to move to a larger market TBH.

But I have earned the little success I have presently because I worked hard for it. Not on how I fire someone.

I'm emotional because I have worked for way too many assholes with your perspective. I've been the one that endures, much like what the OP is mentioning, but have learned, as I have climbed up into my career that it is the one's that like to squash the "ants" with their boots, or just conform to what is expected of them, either get fired for creating a hostile work environment, or fizzle out due to being over stressed because their associates hate them.

Is there emotion involved? Yes. But a man that doesn't use some emotion and thought behind his decisions is one to be quickly betrayed by those beneath him.

I haven't reached my goals either, I am never satisfied, but that doesn't mean I am willing to cut the throats of others to achieve it. Life is life. I have 2 boys to raise and I want them to know what it is to be a man. If that requires me making a bit less, to prove a point to make them quality men, then so be it. Because what it all boils down to is what you leave behind. I'll be leaving quality humans, who can respect others, in this Earth with my perspective, what will you be leaving behind?

[Abba-Dabba]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

I'm emotional because I have worked for way too many assholes with your perspective. I've been the one that endures, much like what the OP is mentioning, but have learned, as I have climbed up into my career that it is the one's that like to squash the "ants" with their boots, or just conform to what is expected of them, either get fired for creating a hostile work environment, or fizzle out due to being over stressed because their associates hate them.

Is there emotion involved? Yes. But a man that doesn't use some emotion and thought behind his decisions is one to be quickly betrayed by those beneath him.

I haven't reached my goals either, I am never satisfied, but that doesn't mean I am willing to cut the throats of others to achieve it. Life is life. I have 2 boys to raise and I want them to know what it is to be a man. If that requires me making a bit less, to prove a point to make them quality men, then so be it. Because what it all boils down to is what you leave behind. I'll be leaving quality humans, who can respect others, in this Earth with my perspective, what will you be leaving behind?

You don't have a clue about me for one thing.

You are wanting a meeting to fire your employee. Your boss just wants you to call him, give him the business end of the deal and not say anything else. Nothing you say is going to help the guy or earn any kind of hero boss respect you are seeking. It has even the potential to end up hurting the company you work for speaking him to more.

You need a management course or 3.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by RubberSponge

You do have a clue about me for one thing.

You are wanting a meeting to fire your employee. Your boss just wants you to call him, give him the business end of the deal and not say anything else. Nothing you say is going to help the guy or earn any kind of hero boss respect you are seeking. It has even the potential to end up hurting the company you work for speaking him to more.

You need a management course or 3.

Man you are dense. Way to divert from what I said though.

[mdchiefsfan]

Now I see how far off we are in understanding. Just for clarification, as I have said before: I don't interview then fire. That is not my position. That is operation's position to decide to fire after my interview, but I feel you should look the man in the eyes and tell him he is fired. You looked him in the eyes and told him he was hired, why the discrepancy?

[Abba-Dabba]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

I'm emotional because I have worked for way too many assholes with your perspective. I've been the one that endures, much like what the OP is mentioning, but have learned, as I have climbed up into my career that it is the one's that like to squash the "ants" with their boots, or just conform to what is expected of them, either get fired for creating a hostile work environment, or fizzle out due to being over stressed because their associates hate them.

Is there emotion involved? Yes. But a man that doesn't use some emotion and thought behind his decisions is one to be quickly betrayed by those beneath him.

I haven't reached my goals either, I am never satisfied, but that doesn't mean I am willing to cut the throats of others to achieve it. Life is life. I have 2 boys to raise and I want them to know what it is to be a man. If that requires me making a bit less, to prove a point to make them quality men, then so be it. Because what it all boils down to is what you leave behind. I'll be leaving quality humans, who can respect others, in this Earth with my perspective, what will you be leaving behind?

I cut throats because I believe there is nothing wrong by not wasting a persons time, afford them opportunity to deal with the intial shock of the firing privately in their own homes. Rather than calling them into a workplace surrounded by their peers to may be have an emotional moment? That makes me the asshole? That makes you the bigger man? Bullshit.

What ever you have learned about how to treat people in life's trying times is ****ed up. Nobody likes that shit to happen surrounded by peers or in public of any sort. That shit can be embarrassing for the former employee.

It's you that are the tool.