Something of a moral dilemma

[Wallcrawler]

So, Im in position to take over the reigns of the store Im currently working in. Its a very small staff, three of us managers and four part time employees.

Things go pretty well most of the time, despite some maturity issues with my direct supervisor. He's only 26, and as far as the business goes, he knows literally everything. Theres no task or problem or issue that he cannot readily resolve within a few minutes.

However, when it comes to actually leading a team of people, this guy is ASS. For real. Schedule changes with little to no notice, making people stay longer so that he can leave early, calling people in early so that he can go home, and being a dick in general about requests for time off even if they are the required two weeks in advance.

So we have a part timer who does a decent job, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the effort is there. He's decided that we are going to part ways with this person, but Im going to be the one to cut the ties.

Over the phone.

To me, this is complete bullshit. The guy being fired, we'll call him "Joe" is only being fired because he's called the boss out on multiple offenses of laziness, both just hanging out in back while on a shift, as well as the multiple counts of leaving early. Joe's broken plans repeatedly, without complaint, to come in early so Boss could leave early. No emergency, just tired of being there.

The first thing I tell Boss is that its chickenshit to fire someone over the phone. If Im going to take your ability to provide for your family from you, Im going to at least have the sac to look you in the face when I do it, and tell you why.

Boss gives zero ****s what I think, or what my view is. He's the boss, Im the subordinate, and my instructions are to call Joe in the morning and tell him that his services are no longer required.

If I refuse, Ill be documented for insubordination and my position to take over the business will take a substantial hit, because the third manager "Yes Man" is a bit spineless when it comes to taking a stand on anything, and simply does what he's told without question.

Now, I have no problem with Joe. Joe could be faster, and smarter, but Joe is always on time, always covers shifts when needed, and always works 100% of the time he is present. In short, dude's not perfect but he's doing everything he can at all times. That goes a long way in my book.

I don't really know what I should do. I mean I want to tell Boss to go **** himself and if he wants to be a chickenshit and fire Joe over the phone for being called out as a lazy **** from time to time, that's his problem and not mine.

On the other hand, I could lose my position to Yes Man and potentially screw myself out of a nice pay increase, perks, and better job security when Boss transfers in June.


Going over Boss' head is out of the question, as the District Manager and Boss are aquainted outside of work and have known each other for about 5 years.

So my choice is to call up Joe in the morning and tell him that he's fired and not be able to tell him exactly why he's being fired, or to tell my Boss to **** off and put my future at risk.

Its such a shit thing to do to someone, especially so close to Christmas.

[Katipan]

It's a shit thing to do but the man is going to get fired one way or another. No reason for you to ruin your Christmas too.

[Lex Luthor]

Originally Posted by Katipan

It's a shit thing to do but the man is going to get fired one way or another. No reason for you to ruin your Christmas too.

Katipan's answer makes sense. The employee is going to be fired, and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. I'd be looking for a long-term exit strategy, but your hands are tied at the moment.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Katipan's answer makes sense. The employee is going to be fired, and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. I'd be looking for a long-term exit strategy, but your hands are tied at the moment.

That's bullshit. The man shouldn't be fired for speaking honestly. Heaven forbid if someone takes what most companies offer, which is an anonymous hotline to HR for just these types of situations.

[Katipan]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

That's bullshit. The man shouldn't be fired for speaking honestly. Heaven forbid if someone takes what most companies offer, which is an anonymous hotline to HR for just these types of situations.

You're pretty lucky if you have the kind of job where you can not do what your boss tells you to do.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Katipan

You're pretty lucky if you have the kind of job where you can not do what your boss tells you to do.

I have comfort in knowing that my boss won't ask me to do anything out of my moral scope to cover his ass, because he knows there are means to bury him if he did.

[Nickel D]

Joe should have had the street smarts to know that he was risking his job when he refused to comply with the selfish demands of the boss. So when you call to notify of him of termination (and you will!), you simply also inform him that the boss instructed you to do the firing and that he also insisted that it be done over the phone.

Lesson you should have learned by now: You'll always have your job by NEVER answering your phone.

[Fairplay]

I'm Joe

[Bwana]

Originally Posted by Fairplay

I'm Joe

Hi Joe, you're about to get horsed.

[TimBone]

The theory of Deontology would tell you to stand up for the kid. It's the right thing to do.

However, Katipan makes a good point. It doesn't seem like it's gonna do much good even if you try.

[PHOG]

Originally Posted by Wallcrawler

So, Im in position to take over the reigns of the store Im currently working in. Its a very small staff, three of us managers and four part time employees.

Things go pretty well most of the time, despite some maturity issues with my direct supervisor. He's only 26, and as far as the business goes, he knows literally everything. Theres no task or problem or issue that he cannot readily resolve within a few minutes.

However, when it comes to actually leading a team of people, this guy is ASS. For real. Schedule changes with little to no notice, making people stay longer so that he can leave early, calling people in early so that he can go home, and being a dick in general about requests for time off even if they are the required two weeks in advance.

So we have a part timer who does a decent job, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the effort is there. He's decided that we are going to part ways with this person, but Im going to be the one to cut the ties.

Over the phone.

To me, this is complete bullshit. The guy being fired, we'll call him "Joe" is only being fired because he's called the boss out on multiple offenses of laziness, both just hanging out in back while on a shift, as well as the multiple counts of leaving early. Joe's broken plans repeatedly, without complaint, to come in early so Boss could leave early. No emergency, just tired of being there.

The first thing I tell Boss is that its chickenshit to fire someone over the phone. If Im going to take your ability to provide for your family from you, Im going to at least have the sac to look you in the face when I do it, and tell you why.

Boss gives zero ****s what I think, or what my view is. He's the boss, Im the subordinate, and my instructions are to call Joe in the morning and tell him that his services are no longer required.

If I refuse, Ill be documented for insubordination and my position to take over the business will take a substantial hit, because the third manager "Yes Man" is a bit spineless when it comes to taking a stand on anything, and simply does what he's told without question.

Now, I have no problem with Joe. Joe could be faster, and smarter, but Joe is always on time, always covers shifts when needed, and always works 100% of the time he is present. In short, dude's not perfect but he's doing everything he can at all times. That goes a long way in my book.

I don't really know what I should do. I mean I want to tell Boss to go **** himself and if he wants to be a chickenshit and fire Joe over the phone for being called out as a lazy **** from time to time, that's his problem and not mine.

On the other hand, I could lose my position to Yes Man and potentially screw myself out of a nice pay increase, perks, and better job security when Boss transfers in June.


Going over Boss' head is out of the question, as the District Manager and Boss are aquainted outside of work and have known each other for about 5 years.

So my choice is to call up Joe in the morning and tell him that he's fired and not be able to tell him exactly why he's being fired, or to tell my Boss to **** off and put my future at risk.

Its such a shit thing to do to someone, especially so close to Christmas.

3 Managers and 4 part time employees? You should know the problem.

[Wallcrawler]

Originally Posted by PHOG

3 Managers and 4 part time employees? You should know the problem.

The problem is a lazy, entitled shitheel that inherited his position and didn't have to interview for it. He doesn't like being called out on not doing his job when he's supposed to be setting the example.

He's always late, which is funny because he makes the ****ing schedule. Always at least ten minutes late and leaving one to two hours early. Multiple trips outside for smoke breaks that range from ten to twenty minutes leaving a single person alone inside while this is going on.

It gets ****ing old.

When he applies himself, the guy is a ****ing whirlwind of productivity. I mean SHIT GETS DONE. No bullshit. We had a corporate visit recently and dude worked a 13 hour shift and did about a week's worth of projects in one double shift.

I tried to explain that if he would simply apply a LITTLE of that every time he was in during the week, it wouldn't have to be like that all at once. But whatever. Its his barbecue.

For now.

Cutting someone loose because you cant handle the truth about your laziness is ****ing bullshit.

Getting someone else to cut that person loose is some cowardly shit.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Wallcrawler

The problem is a lazy, entitled shitheel that inherited his position and didn't have to interview for it. He doesn't like being called out on not doing his job when he's supposed to be setting the example.

He's always late, which is funny because he makes the ****ing schedule. Always at least ten minutes late and leaving one to two hours early. Multiple trips outside for smoke breaks that range from ten to twenty minutes leaving a single person alone inside while this is going on.

It gets ****ing old.

When he applies himself, the guy is a ****ing whirlwind of productivity. I mean SHIT GETS DONE. No bullshit. We had a corporate visit recently and dude worked a 13 hour shift and did about a week's worth of projects in one double shift.

I tried to explain that if he would simply apply a LITTLE of that every time he was in during the week, it wouldn't have to be like that all at once. But whatever. Its his barbecue.

For now.

Cutting someone loose because you cant handle the truth about your laziness is ****ing bullshit.

Getting someone else to cut that person loose is some cowardly shit.

Is there an HR department in your company? Most places don't allow solitary power like you're describing.

[Wallcrawler]

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan

Is there an HR department in your company? Most places don't allow solitary power like you're describing.

There is, and it usually trickles down through the Regional, and then the District Manager.

District Manager and Regional Manager are buddies, so when District tells Regional that Boss is in the right, there's not going to be much questioning.

Arkansas is a "Right to Hire/Fire" state so basically I could fire your ass for looking at me crossways and there's really nothing you could do about it.

This place has been through several managers, and theft was up, profits were down, it was pretty much a nightmare for the DM and if he came here he had to stay for a week to right the ship. As they shuffled through managers hand over fist, they finally found some consistency when Boss took over.

Basically, our productivity is insane, our numbers are great, losses are way down, and Boss looks like a goldenboy because he's passing it off as he's doing this shit singlehandedly, like the staff we have now had nothing to do with it.

He's in a really good position right now. He could probably off someone on the front steps and they would believe he must have had a good reason for it.

He's simply a lazy, selfish asshole who is exercising a little bit of that power now that someone has ruffled his tailfeathers.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Wallcrawler

There is, and it usually trickles down through the Regional, and then the District Manager.

District Manager and Regional Manager are buddies, so when District tells Regional that Boss is in the right, there's not going to be much questioning.

Arkansas is a "Right to Hire/Fire" state so basically I could fire your ass for looking at me crossways and there's really nothing you could do about it.

This place has been through several managers, and theft was up, profits were down, it was pretty much a nightmare for the DM and if he came here he had to stay for a week to right the ship. As they shuffled through managers hand over fist, they finally found some consistency when Boss took over.

Basically, our productivity is insane, our numbers are great, losses are way down, and Boss looks like a goldenboy because he's passing it off as he's doing this shit singlehandedly, like the staff we have now had nothing to do with it.

He's in a really good position right now. He could probably off someone on the front steps and they would believe he must have had a good reason for it.

He's simply a lazy, selfish asshole who is exercising a little bit of that power now that someone has ruffled his tailfeathers.

So what you're telling me is your perception of the company's situation is forcing you into a moral dilemma. Most calls into HR can be anonymous and mention the words potential lawsuit and you have their ears.

Maryland is also a right to fire state, but we have protocols in place to prevent unemployment, none-the-less lawsuits. This man could have a legitimate claim that he was fired for speaking his mind about the lack of effort from this manager and that it was a personal attack rather than a business decision. I suggest you check which angles you can pursue anonymously to put a bug in the higher ups ear.

I just witnessed a GM at a retrial store I used to work for get fired through an anonymous system to the Corperate office HR for lack of moral in the store. No one was punished for their calls. You provide the info you are comfortable giving.
Plain and simple.