Mad Men

[Reaper16]

Season 4 premiered tonight. I would have bumped the season three thread but I titled it "season 3," which no longer seems appropriate.

Who saw it? It was a stupendous hour of television. All sorts of shit has happened in the eleven months that have passed (in-story) between the formation of Sterling Cooper Draper Price and the beginning of season 4. The premeir was stepped in the juices of the sexual revolution. It also had a lot to say about the increasing role of the media in the success or failure of things. It was great to see Don fail a little bit, and it was exciting to consider the future implications at the end of Don crafting a public/media persona that is completely unlike his actual personality.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

Right, but you're not a writer. So it makes sense that you feel that way. I'll just respectfully disagree.

And I don't really care whether or not Lindelof/Cuse knew where they were going. Either way I enjoyed it. But we don't need to rehash all of that again and again and again.

I would like to request a link that shows they "finally revealed publicly that they had no idea where they were going," though. If you have one handy.

Actually, I AM a "writer" and narrative is extremely important to my work.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

It's only a bad ending because they continually said that Robin wasn't the Mother. The writers screwed themselves.

That's the reason why the Friends finale works: At no point did Ross & Rachel EVER say they wouldn't end up together, nor did the writers ever emphasize that point.

It was a bad ending because they spent the last 2+ seasons getting viewers invested in the whole Barney/Robin thing and the last season getting them to really like the mother. They did a lot to show why Ted/Robin weren't a good fit for each other and frankly I'm convinced they aren't.

Then they !@#$ing killed the mother and divorced Barney/Robin in 10 minutes to absolutely shove that stupid damn Ted/Robin thing down our throats.

There were a lot of reasons why that ending didn't work and because of that, just friggen scrap it. It was a fine concept but over the 7 seasons that followed, you have to be willing to be open to the fact that your original ending just isn't going to work now.

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Actually, I AM a "writer" and narrative is extremely important to my work.

My apologies, then. I just assumed from context clues in some of your other posts that you weren't -- or at least, not a write of narrative fiction.

We just have totally different views on this point of process, then.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

My apologies, then. I just assumed from context clues in some of your other posts that you weren't -- or at least, not a write of narrative fiction.

We just have totally different views on this point of process, then.

I'm a film & TV composer, so narrative is especially important to my process.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

It was a bad ending because they spent the last 2+ seasons getting viewers invested in the whole Barney/Robin thing and the last season getting them to really like the mother. They did a lot to show why Ted/Robin weren't a good fit for each other and frankly I'm convinced they aren't.

Then they !@#$ing killed the mother and divorced Barney/Robin in 10 minutes to absolutely shove that stupid damn Ted/Robin thing down our throats.

There were a lot of reasons why that ending didn't work and because of that, just friggen scrap it. It was a fine concept but over the 7 seasons that followed, you have to be willing to be open to the fact that your original ending just isn't going to work now.

They wrote themselves into a corner and it was their fault. They could have written a more appropriate final season and ending because the show took them to places they didn't expect to go initially. Looking back, they went way off the tracks and had they not continued to shove the Ted/Robin thing down the viewers throats, could have had a much better ending.

Overall, it was just dumb on their part. Plus, the show became nearly unwatchable, if not completely unwatchable, around 2011 for me. I only tuned into occasionally and for the extremely disappointing finale.

But hey, Seinfeld's one of the greatest sitcoms of all time and it's hard to name a worse finale. Larry David acknowledged as much during a season of Curb in which he did an addendum to it.

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

I'm a film & TV composer, so narrative is especially important to my process.

Ah! So you don't write scripts! I was sorta right!

I get where you're coming from. I think as a culture we're way too fascinated with destinations over journeys. It's not just film and TV, but literature as well.

Why do we give so much weight to the final third or episode or two minutes of something when there has been so much more before it to celebrate?

I'm a big fan of beginnings and unfoldings. Rarely has an ending made or ruined a script/book/film/show for me.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

Ah! So you don't write scripts! I was sorta right!

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

They wrote themselves into a corner and it was their fault. They could have written a more appropriate final season and ending because the show took them to places they didn't expect to go initially. Looking back, they went way off the tracks and had they not continued to shove the Ted/Robin thing down the viewers throats, could have had a much better ending.

Overall, it was just dumb on their part. Plus, the show became nearly unwatchable, if not completely unwatchable, around 2011 for me. I only tuned into occasionally and for the extremely disappointing finale.

But hey, Seinfeld's one of the greatest sitcoms of all time and it's hard to name a worse finale. Larry David acknowledged as much during a season of Curb in which he did an addendum to it.

Agree about Seinfeld.

The other issue with HIMYM is the network structure though. Look, I get money money money! Of course. It makes all the sense in the world. But it plays against the artist process sometimes. Give show creators a finite number of episodes and give it to them early. Let them wrap up on their own terms. Especially with something like a LOST or a HIMYM that has a sprawling, overarching "mythology" or narrative gimmick.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

I'm a big fan of beginnings and unfoldings. Rarely has an ending made or ruined a script/book/film/show for me.

While I agree, I'd rather see an ending like that of The Office or even Six Feet Under, as opposed to The Soprano's, LOST, etc.

There should be a satisfying resolution for the viewer, IMO. That doesn't mean that it should or shouldn't be a topic of debate but that a character's journey has been resolved, as opposed to the vague or "open ended" finale of The Sopranos or Breaking Bad.

[Red Brooklyn]

Mad Men, frankly, is probably suffering, if it's suffering at all, from that same thing. Just to a smaller degree. Had Weiner been allowed to wrap up a season ago or two seasons ago the show would be a no-brainer best of all time show.

But AMC needed that money money. Again, I don't fault them for it, but I think it can hurt a creative product when that happens.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

Agree about Seinfeld.

The other issue with HIMYM is the network structure though. Look, I get money money money! Of course. It makes all the sense in the world. But it plays against the artist process sometimes. Give show creators a finite number of episodes and give it to them early. Let them wrap up on their own terms. Especially with something like a LOST or a HIMYM that has a sprawling, overarching "mythology" or narrative gimmick.

HIMYM's writers did a poor job of extending the shelf life of their program. They should have added more characters that would have extended the story's arc. New Girl has done a fine job of just that, replacing Damon Wayans, jr. when he couldn't get out of his ABC contract, bringing him back when he did, then just last night, after two seasons, seeing him leave again.

I realize that it's often difficult for show runners to balance commerce versus art but in the case of HIMYM, they betrayed themselves and the audience, IMO.

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

While I agree, I'd rather see an ending like that of The Office or even Six Feet Under, as opposed to The Soprano's, LOST, etc.

There should be a satisfying resolution for the viewer, IMO. That doesn't mean that it should or shouldn't be a topic of debate but that a character's journey has been resolved, as opposed to the vague or "open ended" finale of The Sopranos or Breaking Bad.

I don't disagree in general terms. But I think it's a case by case thing. An ending should feel satisfying. But it's also difficult satisfy everyone. I didn't love Breaking Bad's finale. But not because it was open ended. It seemed pretty open and shut to me. But you obviously found more wiggle room in it. Can't appease everyone. Plenty of people adore the BB finale.

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

HIMYM's writers did a poor job of extending the shelf life of their program. They should have added more characters that would have extended the story's arc. New Girl has done a fine job of just that, replacing Damon Wayans, jr. when he couldn't get out of his ABC contract, bringing him back when he did, then just last night, after two seasons, seeing him leave again.

I realize that it's often difficult for show runners to balance commerce versus art but in the case of HIMYM, they betrayed themselves and the audience, IMO.

Agreed about HIMYM. There were certainly things they could have done differently. And should have done. New Girl is wonderful. But the difference there is that I don't know that there's a long-game there. It can keep treading water because there isn't an answer waiting at the end. Like Friends which you mentioned earlier. Same thing. In fact, maybe a little too similar.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by Red Brooklyn

I don't disagree in general terms. But I think it's a case by case thing. An ending should feel satisfying. But it's also difficult satisfy everyone. I didn't love Breaking Bad's finale. But not because it was open ended. It seemed pretty open and shut to me. But you obviously found more wiggle room in it. Can't appease everyone. Plenty of people adore the BB finale.

BB's finale was fine but it certainly left the door wide open.

Bryan Cranston has acknowledged as much in the past year, which lessens its impact for me.

And for the record, I didn't hate it or dislike it. It just gave me the feeling of "Well, this isn't really over", which pretty much defeats the purpose of a series finale.

[Red Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

BB's finale was fine but it certainly left the door wide open. Bryan Cranston has acknowledged as much in the past year, which lessens its impact for me.

Interesting. I mean, I feel like there's more story to tell in that world. Obviously, now we've got BCS. But Walter's story felt pretty definitely over. Cranston has more authority here than I do. OBVIOUSLY.

So, I'll defer to him. If he feels that way then there you go. But I don't see it.