Official 2012-2013 NBA Thread

[Al Bundy]

Looks like James Harden has been To the Rockets for Jeremey Lamb, Kevin Martin and future picks. Plus... this is a general NBA thread.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

True, but again, keep this in context. When you put a Big 4 together, it's not easy to bring other guys into contract and it's hard to get terrific guys with low draft picks. Especially in the NBA.

The Celtics will finally have chances in the top half of the draft (once they commit to blowing the team up). And losing the Big 4 frees up a shitload of money for a team that isn't afraid to spend and is an attractive place to play. Unlike the NFL, a rebuild isn't nearly as painful, and there's nothing yet that leads us to believe that Green or Melo can't be good core players even if not superstars. In the meanwhile, you still have solid support guys in Barbosa, Bass, and Bradley, all who will probably be there in 5 years. Maybe the Celtics fall on their face. But again, think it's worth seeing how these guys develop, how Ainge does with better picks, and how he spends on money he finally has again to spend.

It depends on your definition of rebuild. If by rebuilding you mean just making the NBA playoffs yea it might be slightly easier because half the teams make the playoffs in each conference. If you mean winning championships IMO it is alot harder in the NBA simply because you need to get one if not 2 Top 10 players to make it happen.

As far as the Celtics go you don't know much about them do you..lol. Barbosa wants or wanted to be traded and Bass has been benched for Sullinger. If Bradley can stay healthy he will be a good player mostly because of his defense. Terry has been awful and Courtney Lee sucks as well. This team now is in big trouble..

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

Instead of repeating the same bullshit narrative that you usually do about how LeBron is some kind of choker, would you care to show us some kind of evidence of this effect? Because while I know you can't, I can actually provide evidence to the contrary:

http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Check out where LeBron's close and late scoring rate, assist rate, rebound rate, and percentages comes in compared to the rest of the league with regularity. He plays no differently than this in the playoffs and in fact often exceeds these totals from his normal performance (see NBA Finals).

I don't rely on blanket statistics. Didn't think I was going to follow up, did you? How many game winners did LeBron hit? Want to see how the playoffs really played out? Here's what he accomplished, based on my definition of what constituted a close game at the time LeBron took a shot or free throw (the games missing were ones where one team had a commanding lead)

Story (in terms of late 4th quarter): LeBron wasn't asked to do much in the Knicks series. Had some absolutely forgettable late game performances in close games against Indiana and Boston. In OKC, he was so-so for a superstar in the finals. The OKC series was a lot more about LeBron dominating early and players like Bosh, Miller, and Chalmers getting unbelievably streaky hot at the right moments.

Knicks:
-Game 4 (loss) –8 points, 1 rebound, 2-3 field, 3-3 free throws (wade takes last shot) TERRIFIC

Indiana
-Game 1 – 8 points, 4-4 free throws, 2-4 from field TERRIFIC
-Game 2 (loss)- 2-6 free throws, 0-1 field TERRIBLE
-Game 4 – 0-2 field, 1-2 free throws (2-2 free throws in sure victory) MEH

Boston
-Game 5 – 6-6 free throws, 0-2 from the field (including missing last two shots in regulation) TERRIBLE
-OT – 2-4 free throws, 1-1 field NOT GOOD
-Game 6 – 1-2 free throws, 1-2 from field NOT MUCH
-OT – 0-2 field, 1 turnover, TERRIBLE

OKC –
-Game 2 – 3-4 free throws, 1-3 field , 1 turnover TERRIBLE
-Game 3 – 2-3 free throws, 2-3 field GOOD
-Game 4 – 1-2 field NOT MUCH

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

It depends on your definition of rebuild. If by rebuilding you mean just making the NBA playoffs yea it might be slightly easier because half the teams make the playoffs in each conference. If you mean winning championships IMO it is alot harder in the NBA simply because you need to get one if not 2 Top 10 players to make it happen.

As far as the Celtics go you don't know much about them do you..lol. Barbosa wants or wanted to be traded and Bass has been benched for Sullinger. If Bradley can stay healthy he will be a good player mostly because of his defense. Terry has been awful and Courtney Lee sucks as well. This team now is in big trouble..

I am talking about these players as being support players, not becoming full-time superstars. Bass, Sullinger, Green, Barbosa, and Bradley (maybe Melo, with time) are a very, very solid supporting cast for Rondo and 2 more superstars. Teams aren't stacking with 10 all-NBA players. Take Cleveland, for example. You can tell they rebuilt that team around core players that will one day support 3 or 4 superstars. Boston is getting to that model now. They have the core guys and will have increasingly better draft picks and a buttload of cap space to do that. That team is not bad, if you can add 2 or 3 top notch players.

[okcchief]

Boston should definitely deal Pierce and KG and get what they can. I really felt that way before the season too.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I don't rely on blanket statistics.

No, you don't rely on anything but the same bullshit narrative that has diminished basketball discussion surrounding LeBron for years. I just showed you years worth of statistics that prove the exact thing you are saying is false. You presented me with a small selection of games in the playoffs last year where he missed a few shots and free throws late (which happens to everyone). I posted earlier a statistic which shows LeBron to be the 3rd greatest playoff performer of all time in terms of what he produces from game to game. You instead presented anecdotal evidence of your baseless feeling that LeBron doesn't have a "killer instinct."

Didn't think I was going to follow up, did you?

Being the butthurt Cavs fan that you are, I had no doubt that you would take the time to spew more bullshit about him. It is what you do.

How many game winners did LeBron hit? Want to see how the playoffs really played out? Here's what he accomplished, based on my definition of what constituted a close game at the time LeBron took a shot or free throw (the games missing were ones where one team had a commanding lead)

LeBron James had one of the greatest NBA postseasons in NBA history last season. He averaged 30.3 points, 9.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 1.9 steals, 0.7 blocks on 50% shooting while getting to the line over 10 times a game. In terms of advanced statistics, his 30.8 PER, 5.8 win shares, and .284 WS/48 ranked as the best of any player in that postseason and ranked with the best of Michael Jordan's best postseasons (MJ only had two better postseasons with higher PERs and WS/48s but never a win share total that high).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html

Story (in terms of late 4th quarter): LeBron wasn't asked to do much in the Knicks series.

And yet he still averaged 27.8 PPG, 6.2 REB 5.6 AST on 48% shooting as the Heat beat the Knicks easily four times.

Had some absolutely forgettable late game performances in close games against Indiana and Boston.

LeBron averaged 30 PPG, 10.8 REB, 6.1 AST on 50.3% shooting against Indiana. As previously mentioned, he came up with a 40, 18, 9 game on the road while down in the series 2-1 basically carrying the Heat to victory (which wasn't the first time he did that throughout the playoffs nor the last).

LeBron averaged 33.6 PPG, 7.7 REB, 3.9 AST on 52.7% shooting against Boston. As previously mentioned, he came up with a 45, 15, and 5 game on 19 of 26 shooting while down 3-2 in an elimination game on the road in Boston. It was one of the best postseason postseason performances ever considering the Heat's precarious situation at that time and how their season ended.

In OKC, he was so-so for a superstar in the finals. The OKC series was a lot more about LeBron dominating early and players like Bosh, Miller, and Chalmers getting unbelievably streaky hot at the right moments.

LeBron averaged 28.6 PPG, 10.2 REB, 7.4 AST on 47.2% shooting against OKC. Yes, that sounds very so-so.

In sum, LeBron played objectively one of the greatest postseasons ever, dominating in every series that the Heat played in on the way to winning a NBA championship. But sure, keep trying to talk yourself into this ridiculous idea that LeBron can't play basketball when it matters. He'll only continue to make you and everyone else who doubts him look like a fool.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

No, you don't rely on anything but the same bullshit narrative that has diminished basketball discussion surrounding LeBron for years. I just showed you years worth of statistics that prove the exact thing you are saying is false. You presented me with a small selection of games in the playoffs last year where he missed a few shots and free throws late (which happens to everyone). I posted earlier a statistic which shows LeBron to be the 3rd greatest playoff performer of all time in terms of what he produces from game to game. You instead presented anecdotal evidence of your baseless feeling that LeBron doesn't have a "killer instinct."



Being the butthurt Cavs fan that you are, I had no doubt that you would take the time to spew more bullshit about him. It is what you do.



LeBron James had one of the greatest NBA postseasons in NBA history last season. He averaged 30.3 points, 9.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 1.9 steals, 0.7 blocks on 50% shooting while getting to the line over 10 times a game. In terms of advanced statistics, his 30.8 PER, 5.8 win shares, and .284 WS/48 ranked as the best of any player in that postseason and ranked with the best of Michael Jordan's best postseasons (MJ only had two better postseasons with higher PERs and WS/48s but never a win share total that high).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html

And yet he still averaged 27.8 PPG, 6.2 REB 5.6 AST on 48% shooting as the Heat beat the Knicks easily four times.


LeBron averaged 30 PPG, 10.8 REB, 6.1 AST on 50.3% shooting against Indiana. As previously mentioned, he came up with a 40, 18, 9 game on the road while down in the series 2-1 basically carrying the Heat to victory (which wasn't the first time he did that throughout the playoffs nor the last).

LeBron averaged 33.6 PPG, 7.7 REB, 3.9 AST on 52.7% shooting against Boston. As previously mentioned, he came up with a 45, 15, and 5 game on 19 of 26 shooting while down 3-2 in an elimination game on the road in Boston. It was one of the best postseason postseason performances ever considering the Heat's precarious situation at that time and how their season ended.


LeBron averaged 28.6 PPG, 10.2 REB, 7.4 AST on 47.2% shooting against OKC. Yes, that sounds very so-so.

In sum, LeBron played objectively one of the greatest postseasons ever, dominating in every series that the Heat played in on the way to winning a NBA championship. But sure, keep trying to talk yourself into this ridiculous idea that LeBron can't play basketball when it matters. He'll only continue to make you and everyone else who doubts him look like a fool.

You said an awful lot in this post, except that you repeat the same point over and over again. And not a one points to the fact that LeBron last playoff run was not asked to do very much in the last 5 minutes of a close game. Yet, you want to point out that he had some kind of an all-world clutch performance, in the finals no less.

I say "fact" because I presented clear game-to-game statistics. He did not make any game-winning shots. He had several opportunities, yet missed. He didn't take a whole lot of shots. And in the last minutes of those games, he often punted to a teammate.

Last year's playoffs were won by LeBron being absolutely nails for 3.5 quarters. In most of those games, the Heat were so dominant that they didn't need the last half quarter. But the facts are right there below that in the last half of the 4th quarter, he was mostly unremarkable, and in some cases, downright bad. But go ahead and dodge that point and tell me again how he did in the first 3.5 quarters of a game, which I've already pointed out as being very impressive.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Last year's playoffs were won by LeBron being absolutely nails for 3.5 quarters. In most of those games, the Heat were so dominant that they didn't need the last half quarter. But the facts are right there below that in the last half of the 4th quarter, he was mostly unremarkable, and in some cases, downright bad. But go ahead and dodge that point and tell me again how he did in the first 3.5 quarters of a game, which I've already pointed out as being very impressive.

I don't understand this point. If he or the Heat were so dominating for 3.5 quarters and they didn't need the last half quarter why does it matter what Lebron did or didn't do? My suggestion would be to pick specific games were it was very close going down to the last 5-6 minutes of the game.

just my .02 cents

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by dirk digler

I don't understand this point. If he or the Heat were so dominating for 3.5 quarters and they didn't need the last half quarter why does it matter what Lebron did or didn't do? My suggestion would be to pick specific games were it was very close going down to the last 5-6 minutes of the game.

just my .02 cents

The stats I showed above is how LeBron performed in games where within the last 5 minutes of the game, a team was leading by about 5-6 points. And the point is to shake off the criticism he has always had that he is not as good of a closer as a person of his talent level should be.

I haven't disputed that he was nails in the playoffs and finals last year. But people are trying to re-shape the dialogue to suggest he shook off criticism that he's clutch. He wasn't asked to be, and in games where he was, he was pretty so-so and sometimes really bad.

[SAUTO]

Wait.

before this someone was saying, without disagreement, Kobe was clutch in instances where he scored a bunch of points in a playoffs game when they won handily.

Double standard?
Posted via Mobile Device

[-King-]

Watching the Celtics/Heat highlights... LeBron wasn't even an option on that last play. He was the screener for both Wade and Battier. Never seen MJ, Kobe, or even Durant do anything like that on a final play.

[dirk digler]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

The stats I showed above is how LeBron performed in games where within the last 5 minutes of the game, a team was leading by about 5-6 points. And the point is to shake off the criticism he has always had that he is not as good of a closer as a person of his talent level should be.

I haven't disputed that he was nails in the playoffs and finals last year. But people are trying to re-shape the dialogue to suggest he shook off criticism that he's clutch. He wasn't asked to be, and in games where he was, he was pretty so-so and sometimes really bad.

My apologies then. Carry on

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

You said an awful lot in this post, except that you repeat the same point over and over again. And not a one points to the fact that LeBron last playoff run was not asked to do very much in the last 5 minutes of a close game. Yet, you want to point out that he had some kind of an all-world clutch performance, in the finals no less.

He had one of the greatest postseason performances the sport has ever seen. This is shown in just about every statistic and measuring stick there is. But other than that, yeah, he did nothing at all for his team.

I say "fact" because I presented clear game-to-game statistics. He did not make any game-winning shots. He had several opportunities, yet missed. He didn't take a whole lot of shots. And in the last minutes of those games, he often punted to a teammate.

You didn't present any such thing. Ignoring all of the evidence provided of LeBron playing well in close and late situations over his entire career in the regular season which quite clearly disproves your bullshit theory to begin with (http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM, http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM, http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM, http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM), you selectively picked out a few playoff games last season where he missed a few shots late. That doesn't prove he's a choker or lacks a killer instinct, nor does it supersede the dominant basketball that he played for his entire playoff run.

Last year's playoffs were won by LeBron being absolutely nails for 3.5 quarters. In most of those games, the Heat were so dominant that they didn't need the last half quarter. But the facts are right there below that in the last half of the 4th quarter, he was mostly unremarkable, and in some cases, downright bad. But go ahead and dodge that point and tell me again how he did in the first 3.5 quarters of a game, which I've already pointed out as being very impressive.

They were won by LeBron being LeBron for the full four quarters of every game that the Heat played. He came through repeatedly when the Heat were on the verge of elimination on the road. Without him and his ridiculous play, Miami doesn't come close to a championship or even the NBA Finals. But he's a choker because he didn't take or make enough shots late in games to your liking? Because he was willing to pass the ball at times to his Hall of Fame teammates to allow them to use their skills as well to win a championship? It's absurd. Do you have any idea how butthurt all of this makes you look?

[KevB]

Originally Posted by -King-

Watching the Celtics/Heat highlights... LeBron wasn't even an option on that last play. He was the screener for both Wade and Battier. Never seen MJ, Kobe, or even Durant do anything like that on a final play.

LeBron hit the three to tie in regulation, and took (and missed) the shot before Battier's heave. I've seen Durant defer to Westbook plenty of times. Giving Wade a shot to tie/win allows for a happier locker room, especially when we're talking about a regular season game.

[-King-]

Originally Posted by KevB

LeBron hit the three to tie in regulation, and took (and missed) the shot before Battier's heave. I've seen Durant defer to Westbook plenty of times. Giving Wade a shot to tie/win allows for a happier locker room, especially when we're talking about a regular season game.

And 9/10 Durant takes the last shot. Seems it's 4/10 when dealing with LeBron.

[Hammock Parties]

DIRK > IVERSON