Chiefs The Film Room aka formerdb: "Chiefs: Quarterbacks and the Coaching" - Page 6

rico · 10-30-2012, 05:49 PM

http://echointhehead.blogspot.com/20....html?spref=tw

Quarterbacking:

When looking at a QB I strip away the Heisman's, MVP's, Super Bowl's...and just look at how they throw a ball. Natural talent like Peyton Manning is scattered throughout the NFL. There is nothing special about how he throws a football from point A to B...a lot of better balls came out of Jamarcus Russell's arm.

If you just watched Peyton Manning it's is not a pretty site. But there isn't a more efficient player on the move than Peyton Manning. The big key with Manning is he can get to his drops quicker than any player in the NFL even at his size. Meaning he has the ability to throw before a defense can diagnose it's a pass.

Sometimes something as simple as that can turn a rather above average QB into a great one. The elite QB's in the NFL aren't the elite talents in Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning...rather they are the most efficient passers in the NFL. All 4 QB's are versatile enough passers to run the style of offense they run, not based on natural talent rather touch/timing.

If you go out to the yard and toss a football from 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards each throw would be different. The mechanics of those throws will be slightly different. The amount of force will be different as well. Scouting a QB is simply identifying how a QB accounts for it with ability and mechanics.

When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL. Flacco can go the furthest downfield without breaking his mechanics. From 30-40 yards Flacco can still manipulate good touch on the football...personally that control at that distance is something I appreciate over any other passer. Every QB breaks mechanics to launch a ball. It's typically where that break happens is what determines functional arm strength to me.

Stanzi:

I don't love the natural talent but I love the technique. His balance/arm efficiency/functional strength/release point all in my opinion are near elite. Stanzi has the tools to be one of the more efficient passers in the league. The issue with Stanzi goes back to that "break" in mechanics when passing.

Stanzi's mind as a QB doesn't match his skill set. Stanzi plays a power style with a efficient skill set. For me I still love the prospect but at this point his style of play will never allow him to tap into what he can actually excel in. As much as I love Stanzi as an intermediate passer, he is too aggressive and often break excellent mechanics in favor of more aggressive reads.

If anyone ask me who I wanted to start for the Chiefs it was Ricky Stanzi. I wasn't certain he was a better QB than Cassel or Quinn, but I was certain he was a more talented passer. Ultimately the amount of "passes" a QB has determines the versatility of the passing game. A team can have Jerry Rice but if the Quarterback can't beat a cover 3 then it doesn't matter...this team is capped on the amount of routes they can call due to the QB.

Daboll/Cassel:

In the preseason I stressed that Cassel looked better because of the passes he was throwing. Stanzi utilized a completely different set of reads. Stanzi's reads had a higher degree of difficulty. To me every completion or attempt isn't equal. How a QB missed the post on a cover 3 is a lot more intriguing than the QB hitting a slant vs. cover 2.

That's the key issue of the season, the reason for the collapse. Daboll and Crennel picked the wrong QB's to run this offense. They picked the guys that were attempting and hitting the easy reads in the preseason over the guy that was missing on the more aggressive reads. It's basic...if you're playbook has a bunch of deep routes, then get the QB that throws those routes.

What's happening is simple. Because we can't threaten deep teams just bracket underneath. It's a simple adjustment that the Chiefs don't have the ability to get teams out of. In my opinion Quinn nor Cassel have that ability. But that shouldn't be what is derailing this team. Long ago Daboll had to figure his player out.

Daboll was applauding Cassel with hitting Baldwin on a fade vs. cover 1...hitting the TE on a skinny post vs. cover 2. Essentially every team has taken those routes away from this offense. It comes as no shock that we aren't having success passing. The timing is not there because Cassel wasn't forced to work on the timing throughout preseason. Felt nervous that we had a coaching staff that lacked vision.

This offenses talents is suited for movement. Albert, Asomoah, Lilja, Allen, Charles, Moeaki are all suited to play in space...with a few of them being among the more athletic players at their positions in the NFL. Players that are suited to play horizontal are being forced to play vertically. Most are making the transition but our Cassel/Quinn don't have the ability to.

What has changed schematically in Kansas City is simple. We went from a team that ran on the perimeter to a team that runs in the interior. We went from a team that threw a bunch of screens, hooks, hitches, slants to one that uses more vertical routes. For the most part every facet is transitioning to the changes outside of the Quarterback.

Final Thought

Stanzi utilizes the reads that this offense is designed to use. Theoretically those vertical routes are supposed to threaten the safety. Mathematically the threat of the pass should account for an additional defender. Depending on the range of the passing game determines the depth of the secondary. Currently the passing game can't remove a defender in the run game.

Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted. The threat of a vertical passing game removes Chargers safety Eric Weddle and the pick on the deflection doesn't happen. Currently because of Quarterback talent this offense is unable to force that adjustment making our intermediate reads a lower percentage.

Daboll has to understand that...instead of waiting for an adjustment from defenses that won't come. He is going to have to adjust if these are his options at QB. I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose, but he can't run this offense. Daboll has to figure out a way to make his QB better or he will handcuff this team to a bad marriage of natural talent and scheme.

Change has to happen...if Daboll doesn't change he has to go...if Cassel doesn't change then the scheme has to...if the scheme doesn't change then the QB has to. The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way.

**Mr. Flopnuts** · 10-31-2012, 10:32 AM

Let's play Stanzi. Why not show that Pioli can pull a Brady out of every draft?

**BossChief** · 10-31-2012, 10:42 AM

I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?

Sweet Daddy Hate · 10-31-2012, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Dear lord.

How about we scrap the whole ****ing lot of them?

Why does there even exist a post in which the likes of the absolute dogshit QB's on this team find themselves in the company of Manning?

Maybe Manning needs his car washed...

Woodchuck · 10-31-2012, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?

All I know is that if he doesn't start a game this season, he ****ing sucks and shouldn't even be at KC's training camp next year.

Fish · 10-31-2012, 10:57 AM

Remember when Scott Pioli told us during the offseason that one of the goals this year would be to provide competition at the QB position? Remember that?

Glad ol' Scott took care of that worry for us......

Sweet Daddy Hate · 10-31-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodsponge Chuckpants

All I know is that if he doesn't start a game this season, he ****ing sucks and shouldn't even be at KC's training camp next year.

He's nothing more than a backup and might even be a good one. Who gives a **** about our backups?!?

Eyes on the prize = Geno.

**RealSNR** · 10-31-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BossChief

I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh.

He should start against SD though.

Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful?

Drew Brees back in San Diego?

Dude was replaced by Jim Harbaugh because he sucked in the beginning of his career. Harbaugh retired, the Chargers drafted Rivers, and Brees had one year to himself. He was incredibly successful, which earned him the deal in New Orleans.

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-31-2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR

Drew Brees back in San Diego?

Dude was replaced by John Harbaugh because he sucked in the beginning of his career. Harbaugh retired, the Chargers drafted Rivers, and Brees had one year to himself. He was incredibly successful, which earned him the deal in New Orleans.

That's a slight exaggeration.

Brees has a medical issue with his shoulder and no one else would take a chance on him. The Saints were rewarded with their faith in the doctors but it just have easily could have gone the other way.

Hence Saban at Alabama.

**BossChief** · 10-31-2012, 11:08 AM

John Harbaugh has a way of indirectly making franchise quarterbacks.

Peyton Manning, too.

**RealSNR** · 10-31-2012, 11:08 AM

Actually, this is kind of a fun game.

How about Matt Hasselbeck? Holmgren got so frustrated he fooled around with Brock Huard for awhile before he said, "**** this. Bring in Hasselbeck."

Along those same lines, Jon Kitna was equally as dreadful in 1999 and 2000, but eventually got his shit together after being benched. Did very well for Cincinnati that year they drafted and sat Carson Palmer for the first season. Almost got Detroit to the playoffs when they were REALLY terrible, too.

**RealSNR** · 10-31-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

That's a slight exaggeration.

Brees has a medical issue with his shoulder and no one else would take a chance on him. The Saints were rewarded with their faith in the doctors but it just have easily could have gone the other way.

Hence Saban at Alabama.

He got that shoulder issue because Marty was a ****ing idiot and wouldn't sit Brees in that garbage time game at the end of the season. Wound up getting BOTH Brees and Rivers killed.

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-31-2012, 11:10 AM

John Harbaugh?

Uh, what?

**DaneMcCloud** · 10-31-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR

He got that shoulder issue because Marty was a ****ing idiot and wouldn't sit Brees in that garbage time game at the end of the season. Wound up getting BOTH Brees and Rivers killed.

Marty for GM!

And Marty for President of the Universe!

**BossChief** · 10-31-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR

He got that shoulder issue because Marty was a ****ing idiot and wouldn't sit Brees in that garbage time game at the end of the season. Wound up getting BOTH Brees and Rivers killed.

yup

**RealSNR** · 10-31-2012, 11:15 AM

There are quite a few guys who couldn't hack it with one team and got benched, but then did well in a change of environment. But that's not quite the same thing. Or they got injured and their replacements were just that damn good that they rode the pine permanently, but still went on to have not so terrible NFL careers.

Trent Dilfer (benched for Shaun King)
Kurt Warner (injury with the Giants, deemed a brokedick, went to Arizona)
Brad Johnson (replaced by Randall Cunningham in Minnesota, but only because Johnson was hurt)
Trent Green (we all know what happened there)

I could have sworn there was some story where Jeff Garcia was benched for poor play as well, but that might be inaccurate. The guy has just been with so many teams that it seems like that would have happened to him somewhere along the way

10-30-2012, 05:49 PM
rico ON CP YOU’RE SOMEBODY’S BITCH! Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Da SEI Casino cash: $4344809	The Film Room aka formerdb: "Chiefs: Quarterbacks and the Coaching" http://echointhehead.blogspot.com/20....html?spref=tw Quarterbacking: When looking at a QB I strip away the Heisman's, MVP's, Super Bowl's...and just look at how they throw a ball. Natural talent like Peyton Manning is scattered throughout the NFL. There is nothing special about how he throws a football from point A to B...a lot of better balls came out of Jamarcus Russell's arm. If you just watched Peyton Manning it's is not a pretty site. But there isn't a more efficient player on the move than Peyton Manning. The big key with Manning is he can get to his drops quicker than any player in the NFL even at his size. Meaning he has the ability to throw before a defense can diagnose it's a pass. Sometimes something as simple as that can turn a rather above average QB into a great one. The elite QB's in the NFL aren't the elite talents in Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning...rather they are the most efficient passers in the NFL. All 4 QB's are versatile enough passers to run the style of offense they run, not based on natural talent rather touch/timing. If you go out to the yard and toss a football from 10 yards, 20 yards, and 30 yards each throw would be different. The mechanics of those throws will be slightly different. The amount of force will be different as well. Scouting a QB is simply identifying how a QB accounts for it with ability and mechanics. When pressed I often say that Joe Flacco is my favorite QB in the NFL. Flacco can go the furthest downfield without breaking his mechanics. From 30-40 yards Flacco can still manipulate good touch on the football...personally that control at that distance is something I appreciate over any other passer. Every QB breaks mechanics to launch a ball. It's typically where that break happens is what determines functional arm strength to me. Stanzi: I don't love the natural talent but I love the technique. His balance/arm efficiency/functional strength/release point all in my opinion are near elite. Stanzi has the tools to be one of the more efficient passers in the league. The issue with Stanzi goes back to that "break" in mechanics when passing. Stanzi's mind as a QB doesn't match his skill set. Stanzi plays a power style with a efficient skill set. For me I still love the prospect but at this point his style of play will never allow him to tap into what he can actually excel in. As much as I love Stanzi as an intermediate passer, he is too aggressive and often break excellent mechanics in favor of more aggressive reads. If anyone ask me who I wanted to start for the Chiefs it was Ricky Stanzi. I wasn't certain he was a better QB than Cassel or Quinn, but I was certain he was a more talented passer. Ultimately the amount of "passes" a QB has determines the versatility of the passing game. A team can have Jerry Rice but if the Quarterback can't beat a cover 3 then it doesn't matter...this team is capped on the amount of routes they can call due to the QB. Daboll/Cassel: In the preseason I stressed that Cassel looked better because of the passes he was throwing. Stanzi utilized a completely different set of reads. Stanzi's reads had a higher degree of difficulty. To me every completion or attempt isn't equal. How a QB missed the post on a cover 3 is a lot more intriguing than the QB hitting a slant vs. cover 2. That's the key issue of the season, the reason for the collapse. Daboll and Crennel picked the wrong QB's to run this offense. They picked the guys that were attempting and hitting the easy reads in the preseason over the guy that was missing on the more aggressive reads. It's basic...if you're playbook has a bunch of deep routes, then get the QB that throws those routes. What's happening is simple. Because we can't threaten deep teams just bracket underneath. It's a simple adjustment that the Chiefs don't have the ability to get teams out of. In my opinion Quinn nor Cassel have that ability. But that shouldn't be what is derailing this team. Long ago Daboll had to figure his player out. Daboll was applauding Cassel with hitting Baldwin on a fade vs. cover 1...hitting the TE on a skinny post vs. cover 2. Essentially every team has taken those routes away from this offense. It comes as no shock that we aren't having success passing. The timing is not there because Cassel wasn't forced to work on the timing throughout preseason. Felt nervous that we had a coaching staff that lacked vision. This offenses talents is suited for movement. Albert, Asomoah, Lilja, Allen, Charles, Moeaki are all suited to play in space...with a few of them being among the more athletic players at their positions in the NFL. Players that are suited to play horizontal are being forced to play vertically. Most are making the transition but our Cassel/Quinn don't have the ability to. What has changed schematically in Kansas City is simple. We went from a team that ran on the perimeter to a team that runs in the interior. We went from a team that threw a bunch of screens, hooks, hitches, slants to one that uses more vertical routes. For the most part every facet is transitioning to the changes outside of the Quarterback. Final Thought Stanzi utilizes the reads that this offense is designed to use. Theoretically those vertical routes are supposed to threaten the safety. Mathematically the threat of the pass should account for an additional defender. Depending on the range of the passing game determines the depth of the secondary. Currently the passing game can't remove a defender in the run game. Because of the lack of the vertical passing attack defenders are flooded in the intermediate zone...hence why so many deflections are being intercepted. The threat of a vertical passing game removes Chargers safety Eric Weddle and the pick on the deflection doesn't happen. Currently because of Quarterback talent this offense is unable to force that adjustment making our intermediate reads a lower percentage. Daboll has to understand that...instead of waiting for an adjustment from defenses that won't come. He is going to have to adjust if these are his options at QB. I still believe Cassel can serve a purpose, but he can't run this offense. Daboll has to figure out a way to make his QB better or he will handcuff this team to a bad marriage of natural talent and scheme. Change has to happen...if Daboll doesn't change he has to go...if Cassel doesn't change then the scheme has to...if the scheme doesn't change then the QB has to. The status quo is flawed and is getting in this teams way.
Posts: 13,261

10-31-2012, 10:42 AM	#77
BossChief SuperBowl or bust Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: BF Iowa Casino cash: $1354088	I don't think Stanzi gets to play until after the MNF game against Pittsburgh. He should start against SD though. Has there EVER been a time when a QB has been benched and then regained his starting job or that team and went on to be successful? __________________ Dreams do come true... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1407
Posts: 47,195

10-31-2012, 10:57 AM	#80
Fish Ain't no relax! Join Date: Sep 2005 Casino cash: $1708919	Remember when Scott Pioli told us during the offseason that one of the goals this year would be to provide competition at the QB position? Remember that? Glad ol' Scott took care of that worry for us...... __________________
Posts: 47,803

10-31-2012, 11:08 AM	#84
BossChief SuperBowl or bust Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: BF Iowa Casino cash: $1354088	John Harbaugh has a way of indirectly making franchise quarterbacks. Peyton Manning, too. __________________ Dreams do come true... http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1407
Posts: 47,195

10-31-2012, 11:10 AM	#87
DaneMcCloud Supporter Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Hollywood, CA Casino cash: $10053648	John Harbaugh? Uh, what?
Posts: 88,960