***Official 2015 STL Cardinals Thread III.***

[BigRedChief]

2011 World Series Championship
2012 NLCS. One win from another WS appearance.
2013 World Series. Two wins from another World Series Championship
2014 NLCS. Three wins from another WS appearance
2015 Central Division title. Won 100 games. Lost in the NLDS.

• Made the postseason 11 times in the last 15 seasons.
• Only 1 losing season since 2000.
• Reached the World Series 4 times since 2004 and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.
• Made the NLCS 9 times including the last 4 years 2011-2014
• Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.
• 65 post season wins since 2004. 22+ wins more than any other team.

[DJ's left nut]

Also reported that the Dodgers are talking Fernandez and the package could include Seager AND Urias. If that's the deal, the Marlins almost have to take it.

Fernandez would be among the hardest guys in the game to justify moving, but for those two guys, you kinda have to do it. My only worry would be whether or not Seager could stick at SS but the Marlins probably don't care as much as most would given that they have an elite defensive SS already in Hechavarria. They'd probably just slide Seager over to 3b at that point.

I'm not sure his value as a 3b is enough to move Fernandez for him, but maybe they do think he can stick at SS and suddenly Hechavarria becomes a very nice piece for a team that has a surplus 3b.

The Cards could offer Reyes, Wong AND Piscotty and it probably doesn't beat the rumored Dodgers deal. It's an outstanding package. The Marlins understand they only have 3 years of control left on Fernandez and I guess they figure they won't be able to re-sign him now that ace starters are fetching $30 million (and he'd hit the market at 26 yrs old so the bidding war will be insane).

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

That is just BS. Can Gordan play RF?

We have Holliday for 2 more years. He has a no trade clause. We have Piscotty ready to go to take his place.

He is not a fit.

As I said way back: Holliday can't play the field anymore and Heyward is long gone. The Cards aren't giving a guy 200M+. That leaves 2 corner slots.


Hamas did not understand this.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

As I said way back: Holliday can't play the field anymore and Heyward is long gone. The Cards aren't giving a guy 200M+. That leaves 2 corner slots.


Hamas did not understand this.

Which leaves Grichuk, Piscotty, Pham, Jay, and Holliday to cover 3 OF spots this year.

You're an idiot.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Also reported that the Dodgers are talking Fernandez and the package could include Seager AND Urias. If that's the deal, the Marlins almost have to take it.

Fernandez would be among the hardest guys in the game to justify moving, but for those two guys, you kinda have to do it. My only worry would be whether or not Seager could stick at SS but the Marlins probably don't care as much as most would given that they have an elite defensive SS already in Hechavarria. They'd probably just slide Seager over to 3b at that point.

I'm not sure his value as a 3b is enough to move Fernandez for him, but maybe they do think he can stick at SS and suddenly Hechavarria becomes a very nice piece for a team that has a surplus 3b.

The Cards could offer Reyes, Wong AND Piscotty and it probably doesn't beat the rumored Dodgers deal. It's an outstanding package. The Marlins understand they only have 3 years of control left on Fernandez and I guess they figure they won't be able to re-sign him now that ace starters are fetching $30 million (and he'd hit the market at 26 yrs old so the bidding war will be insane).

No way do I want the Dodgers to get rid of Urias AND Seager.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Also reported that the Dodgers are talking Fernandez and the package could include Seager AND Urias. If that's the deal, the Marlins almost have to take it.

Fernandez would be among the hardest guys in the game to justify moving, but for those two guys, you kinda have to do it. My only worry would be whether or not Seager could stick at SS but the Marlins probably don't care as much as most would given that they have an elite defensive SS already in Hechavarria. They'd probably just slide Seager over to 3b at that point.

I'm not sure his value as a 3b is enough to move Fernandez for him, but maybe they do think he can stick at SS and suddenly Hechavarria becomes a very nice piece for a team that has a surplus 3b.

The Cards could offer Reyes, Wong AND Piscotty and it probably doesn't beat the rumored Dodgers deal. It's an outstanding package. The Marlins understand they only have 3 years of control left on Fernandez and I guess they figure they won't be able to re-sign him now that ace starters are fetching $30 million (and he'd hit the market at 26 yrs old so the bidding war will be insane).

Damn that's a lot.

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Which leaves Grichuk, Piscotty, Pham, Jay, and Holliday to cover 3 OF spots this year.

You're an idiot.

You'll commit suicide before you ever admit you were wrong. It's a terrible character flaw you have.


I'll trust Nightengale knows more than you do.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

No way do I want the Dodgers to get rid of Urias AND Seager.

On it face, yeah that's a ton.

But the Dodgers can afford to pay Fernandez and you guys would have the best 1-2 punch since Johnson/Schilling - a duo that took the DBacks all the way to the championship.

You really are talking Koufax/Drysdale here. In the era of short-series baseball, you'd have a very real possibility have having the best top 2 duo in baseball history for the next 3-5 years.

Flags fly forever. I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to pull the trigger on that, but at the same time I'd have a hard time categorically stating that there's 'no way' I'd want to do it. It seems impossible to me that the Dodgers couldn't build a team around Kershaw/Fernandez that was good enough to make the post-season 5 times in the next 5 seasons and if they manage that, they will absolutely be able to ride that pair to at least one championship in short-series ball.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

You'll commit suicide before you ever admit you were wrong. It's a terrible character flaw you have.


I'll trust Nightengale knows more than you do.

Show me where the two COF holes are, dumbass.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Show me where the two COF holes are, dumbass.

I can make an argument to add Heyward AND another OFer.

You put Piscotty/Moss as platoon options at 1b, Heyward in CF, Holliday in LF and, for me, Upton in RF (though in this scenario it's evidently Gordon). Grichuk/Pham are available bench bats with Diaz/Garcia, Adams, Pena, Piscotty/Moss as the rest of your bench.

Then you dump Jay for a bucket of balls. If you have to eat salary, so be it. The guy serves no purpose here if Heyward's on the team.

Holliday's going to get hurt frequently anyway, not to mention the injury history of Pham and Grichuk. There will be a few weeks here and there where it's tough to find playing time for all of them, but I also expect that Holliday, Moss, Adams, Pham and Grichuk will all spend time on the DL at some point.

To whatever extent you've created a log-jam, it's a problem for a single season, after which you decline the option on Holliday, let Moss walk in FA and now you have Upton - Grichuk - Heyward in the OF w/ Piscotty/Adams at 1b long-term and Pham as a nice 4th OFer.

[O.city]

So, not everyday player in grichuk?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

On it face, yeah that's a ton.

But the Dodgers can afford to pay Fernandez and you guys would have the best 1-2 punch since Johnson/Schilling - a duo that took the DBacks all the way to the championship.

You really are talking Koufax/Drysdale here. In the era of short-series baseball, you'd have a very real possibility have having the best top 2 duo in baseball history for the next 3-5 years.

Flags fly forever. I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to pull the trigger on that, but at the same time I'd have a hard time categorically stating that there's 'no way' I'd want to do it. It seems impossible to me that the Dodgers couldn't build a team around Kershaw/Fernandez that was good enough to make the post-season 5 times in the next 5 seasons and if they manage that, they will absolutely be able to ride that pair to at least one championship in short-series ball.

They have $200 billion to play with over the next 18 years. They can just buy more talent. If that doesn't work out, buy some more, They could care less about dead money.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I can make an argument to add Heyward AND another OFer.

You put Piscotty/Moss as platoon options at 1b, Heyward in CF, Holliday in LF and, for me, Upton in RF (though in this scenario it's evidently Gordon). Grichuk/Pham are available bench bats with Diaz/Garcia, Adams, Pena, Piscotty/Moss as the rest of your bench.

Then you dump Jay for a bucket of balls. If you have to eat salary, so be it. The guy serves no purpose here if Heyward's on the team.

Holliday's going to get hurt frequently anyway, not to mention the injury history of Pham and Grichuk. There will be a few weeks here and there where it's tough to find playing time for all of them, but I also expect that Holliday, Moss, Adams, Pham and Grichuk will all spend time on the DL at some point.

To whatever extent you've created a log-jam, it's a problem for a single season, after which you decline the option on Holliday, let Moss walk in FA and now you have Upton - Grichuk - Heyward in the OF w/ Piscotty/Adams at 1b long-term and Pham as a nice 4th OFer.

That's not a bad long-term strategy if you want to drop $350 million into two OFs this season, but if the Cardinals were worried at all about their OF depth, they wouldn't have waived Bourjos.

Every OF on the ML Roster right now, save Pham, has significant experience playing in the COF and three of them can play center. Hell, even Moss can play a COF spot at about the same ghastly level as Holliday.

It just seems like that approach shuffles around multiple deck chairs, spends a lot of money, and still doesn't fix the biggest hole on the team, first, with a guy whose bat would profile as good for the position.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I can make an argument to add Heyward AND another OFer.

You put Piscotty/Moss as platoon options at 1b, Heyward in CF, Holliday in LF and, for me, Upton in RF (though in this scenario it's evidently Gordon). Grichuk/Pham are available bench bats with Diaz/Garcia, Adams, Pena, Piscotty/Moss as the rest of your bench.

Then you dump Jay for a bucket of balls. If you have to eat salary, so be it. The guy serves no purpose here if Heyward's on the team.

Holliday's going to get hurt frequently anyway, not to mention the injury history of Pham and Grichuk. There will be a few weeks here and there where it's tough to find playing time for all of them, but I also expect that Holliday, Moss, Adams, Pham and Grichuk will all spend time on the DL at some point.

To whatever extent you've created a log-jam, it's a problem for a single season, after which you decline the option on Holliday, let Moss walk in FA and now you have Upton - Grichuk - Heyward in the OF w/ Piscotty/Adams at 1b long-term and Pham as a nice 4th OFer.

I have no confidence that Adams is an ever day 1B. Or can hit like a 1B should.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

So, not everyday player in grichuk?

He'll get 80 starts and 350+ ABs even in this alignment due to injury and matchups. You can find him 3 starts/wk just rotating among the other 3 OFers. You situationally deploy him in a manner that tends to hide him from power pitchers (who really carve him up) and use him as your first bat off the bench, so he's not being sent out there in the 8th/9th against the hellish relievers that will cut up anybody with a hole in their swing.

He did enough to show that he could very well be an everyday player long-term (hence me including him at CF in my 2017 plan), but he also showed enough flaws that I'm not going to ink him in for 155 starts. He's still damn young - 2016 will be his age 24 season - there's plenty of development yet for him to do and there's a good spot on this team for him to do that from.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I have no confidence that Adams is an ever day 1B. Or can hit like a 1B should.

Well I guess it's a good thing I'm signing Upton AND Heyward then.

That's part of why I'm not closed off to the idea of bringing in 2 OFers. Piscotty's natural progression would seem to be towards LF, but like you, I worry he'll be needed at 1b.