Chiefs Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers - Page 5

thabear04 · 09-01-2015, 10:54 AM

http://www.chiefs.com/news/article-2...b-ae8aef50333d

1. Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers

“Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by.

“The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.”

Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks.” READ MORE…

In his first visit to Chiefs training camp in St. Joseph, former general manager Carl Peterson indulged an inquisitor about Derrick Thomas.

The cornerstone of the Chiefs’ success in the 1990s. … A game-changer with his speed and first step. … Not crushing quarterbacks but more interested in the forced fumble.

No more than 50 feet away as Peterson continued, a cadence of thwaps, like a boxer hitting a speed bag in perfect rhythm, diverted attention.

Justin Houston was getting in his post-practice work, a hand-eye coordination drill on a blocking sled. This is how Houston finished every day, he and Tamba Hali, and sometimes younger Chiefs following the leaders.

“Obviously a standout player,” Peterson said. “He’s on his way.”

(This story is part of The Kansas City Star’s Football 2015 special section that publishes Sunday, Aug. 30. Pick one up and check out more here.)

Perhaps one day to the place where Peterson was heading in the next few days — to Canton, Ohio, and the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Peterson would soon be there to pay tribute to inductee Will Shields, the great Chiefs offensive lineman.

While there, Peterson would also remember his friend, Thomas, his first draft pick as the Chiefs’ new general manager in 1989 and to whom he paid the ultimate tribute — Thomas’ posthumous Hall of Fame enshrinement speech in 2009.

“He has a chance,” Peterson said of Houston. “He has the talent, and, knock on wood, he stays healthy.”

Comparisons between Justin Houston and Derrick Thomas gained momentum as the 2014 season unfolded and Houston’s sack totals went from those of a solid Pro Bowl selection to epic.

Starting with the Chiefs’ third game, a victory at Miami, Houston recorded at least one sack in six straight games, including five in a two-game stretch.

At midseason, Houston had 12 sacks. Since Thomas’ final season in 1999, only two Chiefs have amassed that many sacks for an entire season: Jared Allen with 15 1/2 in 2007 and Hali with 14 1/2 in 2010.

Clearly, Houston was bound for something special.

After two games without a sack, a new streak started. Houston recorded at last one sack over the Chiefs’ final six games, culminating with a four-sack game in the finale against the San Diego Chargers. That matched the best game in the NFL last season.

The final tally: An NFL-best 22 sacks, eclipsing Thomas’ team record of 20 set in 1990 and falling half a sack short of Michael Strahan’s league record from 2001.

Following the path of Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier and Thomas, the Chiefs are convinced their next great linebacker has arrived. This summer, they rewarded Houston with a six-year, $101 million deal, with $52.5 million guaranteed.

The Chiefs speak of Houston as a cornerstone player, just as the organization described Thomas in the 1990s.

“He became a symbol of our success,” Peterson said. “He was our game-changer.”

Houston is becoming that player for the Chiefs. But can he become as productive as Derrick Thomas?

After four seasons, the former Southeastern Conference stars — Houston from Georgia, Thomas from Alabama — posted similar numbers. In 63 games, Thomas had 58 sacks and appeared in four Pro Bowls.

Houston has 48 1/2 sacks and three Pro Bowl appearances.

The biggest statistical gap speaks to their difference in playing styles. Four years into his career, Thomas had 21 forced fumbles. Houston has forced seven.

“John Elway said Derrick never wanted to kill him, he just wanted the take the ball from him,” Peterson said. “Derrick could change the course of a game with a single play. Invariably, when we needed a sack, Derrick, he’d get it. If we needed a fumble, he’d force it or get it.”

Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by.

“The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.”

Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks.

“Justin’s physicality is special,” Baldinger said. “So even if he doesn’t beat someone with his speed like Derrick could, he has the ability to bull-rush him.

“Also, you have to account for No. 50 when you’re run-blocking. He can defeat any tight end in the league. Ain’t no tight end that’s going to block him.”

Chiefs defensive coordinator Bob Sutton calls Houston an ideal power-and-speed player who brings versatility.

“We move him around a lot, which really helps us from a scheme standpoint,” Sutton said. “You don’t know where he’s going to be or what he’s going to do. Sometimes he plays inside, sometimes on the right side. For a guy to be able to do that, it helps us and makes him an effective player.”

One of the most important common denominators is what surrounds the two defensive playmakers.

A year before the Chiefs took Thomas in the first round with the fourth overall selection, they had drafted defensive Neil Smith from Nebraska with the second overall pick. Together, Thomas and Smith grew into a dynamic duo, playing off each other. They were teammates through the 1996 season, and Smith was a first-team All-Pro once and played in five Pro Bowls with the Chiefs.

Alongside Houston there’s Hali, a five-time Pro Bowler who is about to begin his 10th season. When Houston was breaking into the league, Hali absorbed the double teams. Now, it’s Houston drawing the double teams — and sometimes more.

“I told Tamba, ‘Go tell (Houston) he owes you some of that money,’” said Peterson, who drafted Hali. “‘You make him better and he makes you better.’”

Where the Chiefs would like to see Houston catch Thomas is in team success. Through their first four years, Thomas’ teams went to the playoffs three times. There would be three more years of playoff appearances, including the 1993 AFC championship game.

In 11 seasons, Thomas played for six playoff teams and three division winners. In Houston’s four seasons, the Chiefs have appeared in one playoff game and haven’t won a division title.

Houston has the sack record, and he has established himself as one of the NFL’s top players (and among its richest). Thomas’s first four years statistically were his best. Houston wants to keep rising.

“How do I top last year?” Houston said. “I put last year behind me and look forward to this year. I’m going to continue to do what I do …continue to stay focused and work like I’ve been working. Nothing changes.”

TALE OF THE TAPE
Here’s how Justin Houston stacks up with Derrick Thomas through their first four NFL seasons:

Houston Category Thomas

6 feet 3 Height 6 feet 3

258 Weight 255

59 Games played 63

48 1/2 Sacks (total) 58

22 Sacks (single-season high) 20

7 Forced fumbles 21

3 Pro Bowl selections 4

Halfcan · 09-01-2015, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

I don't know what bob gretz said about anything but I do know dt was pretty routinely beaten by running right at him and he was a fish out of water in pass coverage. The reason you occasionally drop houston back is because he can cover.

I never heard DT getting beat routinely Ever in his playing days. Never saw it either. I am not sure what games you were watching.

Our teams of the 90's would have been shit without him-he changed the entire culture of the Franchise and made KC love football again.

I think we have had all of these discussions about DT before-it was all bullshit then - and repeating the same lies doesn't make it true now.

Marcellus · 09-01-2015, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I think what people are forgetting is that DT was added to an already talented defensive group.

He brought energy and emotion, and the rest fed off of that.

No doubt, he played on a series of really stellar defenses which helped.

Houston has had hit and miss talent around him and fewer opportunities.

I still want to see that signature epic moment.

DT had so many they are hard to list.

Calling the safety, 7 sacks in a game, 6 sacks in a game, Elway strip sack, yada yada yada.

milkman · 09-01-2015, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halfcan

I never heard DT getting beat routinely Ever in his playing days. Never saw it either. I am not sure what games you were watching.

Our teams of the 90's would have been shit without him-he changed the entire culture of the Franchise and made KC love football again.

I think we have had all of these discussions about DT before-it was all bullshit then - and repeating the same lies doesn't make it true now.

You are about the most lovable dumbshit ever.

Marcellus · 09-01-2015, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

You are about the most lovable dumbshit ever.

While I have mentioned DT's epic moments apparently people have forgotten him getting benched in a playoff game for not being able to contain the run and the Monday Night Meltdown.

But no, he never got beat.

Halfcan is Halfcan't most of the time.

milkman · 09-01-2015, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

While I have mentioned DT's epic moments apparently people have forgotten him getting benched in a playoff game for not being able to contain the run and the Monday Night Meltdown.

But no, he never got beat.

Halfcan is Halfcan't most of the time.

Halfwit.

Brock · 09-01-2015, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halfcan

I never heard DT getting beat routinely Ever in his playing days. Never saw it either. I am not sure what games you were watching.

Our teams of the 90's would have been shit without him-he changed the entire culture of the Franchise and made KC love football again.

I think we have had all of these discussions about DT before-it was all bullshit then - and repeating the same lies doesn't make it true now.

I'm not lying. These are facts, you're just homering it up. Dt had 74 tfl in his career. Houston had 23 LAST YEAR. You either just don't remember how dt looked like he was playing on roller skates sometimes when they ran at him or you think it's disrespectful to compare him to someone who is better at that aspect than he was. DT was a great player, top 5 pass rusher of all time. But he did have holes in his game that houston doesn't.

ThaVirus · 09-01-2015, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vietnam58

Another interesting question would be prime Priest Holmes vs prime Jamaal Charles

That's not interesting at all.

Jamaal by a mile.

**notorious** · 09-01-2015, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

That's not interesting at all.

Jamaal by a mile.

Not yet.

He is literally a half-mile ahead of him right now.

Deberg_1990 · 09-01-2015, 09:18 PM

I'll bet Houston can buckle his seat belt.

Brock · 09-01-2015, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

I'll bet Houston can buckle his seat belt.

deberg post

Vietnam58 · 09-01-2015, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

That's not interesting at all.

Jamaal by a mile.

really? I dont agree..Im Team Priest. .

I said prime. .so take the best 2 years or their careers. .

Priest had 27 rushing TDS one year and 21TDs in another..

Charles has 38 in all his years combined. .

Stat wise its pretty close..I love Jamaal but Priest was a monster. . the patience and vision. .

sorry to derail thread back to DT vs JH. .

It is nice that at least we have some players now that we can compare to the greats. .

but there better not be a Kelce vs Tony G thread..

Brock · 09-01-2015, 09:25 PM

Charles played on a bunch of shitty teams and still got his.

milkman · 09-01-2015, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vietnam58

really? I dont agree..Im Team Priest. .

I said prime. .so take the best 2 years or their careers. .

Priest had 27 rushing TDS one year and 21TDs in another..

Charles has 38 in all his years combined. .

Stat wise its pretty close..I love Jamaal but Priest was a monster. . the patience and vision. .

sorry to derail thread back to DT vs JH. .

It is nice that at least we have some players now that we can compare to the greats. . but ther better not be a Kelce vs Tony G thread..

Priest ran behind one of the all time great O-Lines.

Charles has run behind crap.

jonzie04 · 09-01-2015, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990

I'll bet Houston can buckle his seat belt.

Damn, really.

O.city · 09-01-2015, 09:32 PM

If you put Charles behind the same OL priest ran behind, you wouldn't need a QB

09-01-2015, 10:54 AM
thabear04 MTFU Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The Valley Heat Casino cash: $5570450	Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers http://www.chiefs.com/news/article-2...b-ae8aef50333d 1. Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers “Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by. “The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.” Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks.” READ MORE… In his first visit to Chiefs training camp in St. Joseph, former general manager Carl Peterson indulged an inquisitor about Derrick Thomas. The cornerstone of the Chiefs’ success in the 1990s. … A game-changer with his speed and first step. … Not crushing quarterbacks but more interested in the forced fumble. No more than 50 feet away as Peterson continued, a cadence of thwaps, like a boxer hitting a speed bag in perfect rhythm, diverted attention. Justin Houston was getting in his post-practice work, a hand-eye coordination drill on a blocking sled. This is how Houston finished every day, he and Tamba Hali, and sometimes younger Chiefs following the leaders. “Obviously a standout player,” Peterson said. “He’s on his way.” (This story is part of The Kansas City Star’s Football 2015 special section that publishes Sunday, Aug. 30. Pick one up and check out more here.) Perhaps one day to the place where Peterson was heading in the next few days — to Canton, Ohio, and the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Peterson would soon be there to pay tribute to inductee Will Shields, the great Chiefs offensive lineman. While there, Peterson would also remember his friend, Thomas, his first draft pick as the Chiefs’ new general manager in 1989 and to whom he paid the ultimate tribute — Thomas’ posthumous Hall of Fame enshrinement speech in 2009. “He has a chance,” Peterson said of Houston. “He has the talent, and, knock on wood, he stays healthy.” Comparisons between Justin Houston and Derrick Thomas gained momentum as the 2014 season unfolded and Houston’s sack totals went from those of a solid Pro Bowl selection to epic. Starting with the Chiefs’ third game, a victory at Miami, Houston recorded at least one sack in six straight games, including five in a two-game stretch. At midseason, Houston had 12 sacks. Since Thomas’ final season in 1999, only two Chiefs have amassed that many sacks for an entire season: Jared Allen with 15 1/2 in 2007 and Hali with 14 1/2 in 2010. Clearly, Houston was bound for something special. After two games without a sack, a new streak started. Houston recorded at last one sack over the Chiefs’ final six games, culminating with a four-sack game in the finale against the San Diego Chargers. That matched the best game in the NFL last season. The final tally: An NFL-best 22 sacks, eclipsing Thomas’ team record of 20 set in 1990 and falling half a sack short of Michael Strahan’s league record from 2001. Following the path of Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier and Thomas, the Chiefs are convinced their next great linebacker has arrived. This summer, they rewarded Houston with a six-year, $101 million deal, with $52.5 million guaranteed. The Chiefs speak of Houston as a cornerstone player, just as the organization described Thomas in the 1990s. “He became a symbol of our success,” Peterson said. “He was our game-changer.” Houston is becoming that player for the Chiefs. But can he become as productive as Derrick Thomas? After four seasons, the former Southeastern Conference stars — Houston from Georgia, Thomas from Alabama — posted similar numbers. In 63 games, Thomas had 58 sacks and appeared in four Pro Bowls. Houston has 48 1/2 sacks and three Pro Bowl appearances. The biggest statistical gap speaks to their difference in playing styles. Four years into his career, Thomas had 21 forced fumbles. Houston has forced seven. “John Elway said Derrick never wanted to kill him, he just wanted the take the ball from him,” Peterson said. “Derrick could change the course of a game with a single play. Invariably, when we needed a sack, Derrick, he’d get it. If we needed a fumble, he’d force it or get it.” Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by. “The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.” Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks. “Justin’s physicality is special,” Baldinger said. “So even if he doesn’t beat someone with his speed like Derrick could, he has the ability to bull-rush him. “Also, you have to account for No. 50 when you’re run-blocking. He can defeat any tight end in the league. Ain’t no tight end that’s going to block him.” Chiefs defensive coordinator Bob Sutton calls Houston an ideal power-and-speed player who brings versatility. “We move him around a lot, which really helps us from a scheme standpoint,” Sutton said. “You don’t know where he’s going to be or what he’s going to do. Sometimes he plays inside, sometimes on the right side. For a guy to be able to do that, it helps us and makes him an effective player.” One of the most important common denominators is what surrounds the two defensive playmakers. A year before the Chiefs took Thomas in the first round with the fourth overall selection, they had drafted defensive Neil Smith from Nebraska with the second overall pick. Together, Thomas and Smith grew into a dynamic duo, playing off each other. They were teammates through the 1996 season, and Smith was a first-team All-Pro once and played in five Pro Bowls with the Chiefs. Alongside Houston there’s Hali, a five-time Pro Bowler who is about to begin his 10th season. When Houston was breaking into the league, Hali absorbed the double teams. Now, it’s Houston drawing the double teams — and sometimes more. “I told Tamba, ‘Go tell (Houston) he owes you some of that money,’” said Peterson, who drafted Hali. “‘You make him better and he makes you better.’” Where the Chiefs would like to see Houston catch Thomas is in team success. Through their first four years, Thomas’ teams went to the playoffs three times. There would be three more years of playoff appearances, including the 1993 AFC championship game. In 11 seasons, Thomas played for six playoff teams and three division winners. In Houston’s four seasons, the Chiefs have appeared in one playoff game and haven’t won a division title. Houston has the sack record, and he has established himself as one of the NFL’s top players (and among its richest). Thomas’s first four years statistically were his best. Houston wants to keep rising. “How do I top last year?” Houston said. “I put last year behind me and look forward to this year. I’m going to continue to do what I do …continue to stay focused and work like I’ve been working. Nothing changes.” TALE OF THE TAPE Here’s how Justin Houston stacks up with Derrick Thomas through their first four NFL seasons: Houston Category Thomas 6 feet 3 Height 6 feet 3 258 Weight 255 59 Games played 63 48 1/2 Sacks (total) 58 22 Sacks (single-season high) 20 7 Forced fumbles 21 3 Pro Bowl selections 4
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09-01-2015, 09:18 PM	#69
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $3644454	I'll bet Houston can buckle his seat belt. __________________ Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning: Matt once made a very nice play in Seattle where he spun away from a pass rusher and hit Bowe off his back foot for a first down. One of the best plays Matt has ever made.
Posts: 66,914

09-01-2015, 09:25 PM	#72
Brock Say hello to my little friend Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Larryville Casino cash: $9598422	Charles played on a bunch of shitty teams and still got his.
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09-01-2015, 09:32 PM	#75
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $2434064	If you put Charles behind the same OL priest ran behind, you wouldn't need a QB
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