Mizzou Basketball

[Saul Good]

MIZ-ZOU

[Chiefspants]

I'll get flamed for this, but, as a KU fan, I truly think that this has become quite excessive.

If we get upset in the first/second round next year, we're due to have a ton of stihs lofted in our direction.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by H5N1

haha, seriously? there is only one base for your comparison--the fact that jim brown retired young (29). he played nine full seasons, 118 games (excluding playoffs) and never missed a game. he led the league in carries six times.

no doubt, gale sayers was talented. but let me put it this way--where do you draw the line? to go to extremes, matt cassel once had two 400 yard passing games in a row. it's never been done before. if he'd have retired after that, does that make him a hall-of-famer?

gale sayers' career numbers are no better than priest holmes or terrell davis, both of which were amazing and among the best in the nfl before they retired due to injury concerns. there's a matter of consistency here: if a guy is a hall-of-famer in 1970, he's a hall-of-famer in 2012 (ignoring changes in style of play--1000 yards was more impressive in a 14 game season than now, league rules change to make offense easier, etc.). vis a vis, if gale sayers is a hall-of-famer, so are terrell davis and priest holmes. since they aren't, by proxy, gale sayers is a hall-of-famer in name only.

You'd be better off arguing for Priest's and Terrell's worthiness. Add Billy Simms to that list.

Slippery slope arguments are shit. Of course there are points where short spots of brilliance are too short, but Sayers isn't that point. He had 4 1/2 seasons of play, and still made 4 Pro Bowls and 5 [FIVE!!] First Team All Pros. Led the league in total yards 3 times. 22 TDs in his rookie season, including 6 [SIX!!] in one game. Highlights rivaled only by Barry Sanders. All on a shit team where he was the ONLY thing the opposition had to defense.

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by H5N1

hell, I'll tell you what--if gale sayers had retired with 12,000 rushing yards and never missed a game in his four full seasons, THEN I'd be able to ignore the longevity issue.

Closest analog I can think of, what if Tom Brady ended his undefeated season with a SB win, then Pollard's knee job ended things for good? Too short of a career?

[Al Bundy]

Originally Posted by Thig Lyfe

They can't ban me! I run shit around here! You just live here! I'll burn this mother****er down!

KING KONG ain't got SHIT on ME!!!!

You remember what happened to Denzel in that movie.. right?

[notorious]

Originally Posted by Mosbonian

So you are 15?

He has seen Training Day, so he might be 16.

[Thig Lyfe]

Originally Posted by Mosbonian

So you are 15?

Check my join date, son! You think I was posting when I was 7? I ain't 15! My shit's just too next-level for you to comprehend!! You might as well retire from the Internet cuz you can't keep up with this!!!

[Thig Lyfe]

Originally Posted by UCF Knight

You remember what happened to Denzel in that movie.. right?

Nah I turned it off before the end because it was getting too scary

[Baby Lee]

Someone ODed on episodes of Eastbound and Down.

[Thig Lyfe]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Someone ODed on episodes of Eastbound and Down.

I haven't actually seen the new season yet, but I hear it's great.

[Ebolapox]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

You'd be better off arguing for Priest's and Terrell's worthiness. Add Billy Simms to that list.

Slippery slope arguments are shit. Of course there are points where short spots of brilliance are too short, but Sayers isn't that point. He had 4 1/2 seasons of play, and still made 4 Pro Bowls and 5 [FIVE!!] First Team All Pros. Led the league in total yards 3 times. 22 TDs in his rookie season, including 6 [SIX!!] in one game. Highlights rivaled only by Barry Sanders. All on a shit team where he was the ONLY thing the opposition had to defense.

love to see where you're getting your stats... here's my source:

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SayeGa00.htm

I have only two times leading the league in yards twice, one of which he ALSO led in total yards--that doesn't equate to two times in one season to me, though. TD numbers are also a bit off, but that doesn't include pr/kr touchdowns for some reason, and I know he had more than a few, so I'll give you that one.

I'm not debating that he was an amazing player--he absolutely was. I just don't think he had enough longevity to be in the hall-of-fame... not that I'm a big fan of compilers, though. it's also highly subjective, obviously. in comparison, let's make a hypothetical... let's take the first 67 games of walter payton's career. his stats are thus (approximates), assuming he'd have retired after his fifth season:

Originally Posted by pro-football-reference.com

Games: 67
Games started: 61
Attempts: 1548
Yards rushing: 6926
Touchdowns: 59
Long: 76
Yards per attempt: 4.47
Yards/game: 103.4
Receptions: 156
Reception yards: 1424
Yards per reception: 9.12
Receiving touchdowns: 4
Long: 75
Yards from scrimmage: 8350

let's compare this to gale sayers...more yards, less per attempt, WAY more yards per game, more receptions, more receiving yards, less yards per reception, more total touchdowns by 15 (not counting return touchdowns, which may skew toward sayers, though walter payton DID return a few kicks early in his career, IIRC, and he DID have a touchdown or two--he was quite explosive), and he dominates sayers in yards from scrimmage. oh yeah, he also led the league in 'yards' from scrimmage twice, one of those in rushing yards as well--essentially, the same as sayers (but reversed).

so, is walter payton a hall-of-famer after five seasons? that's completely subjective. if you're a jackson state alum or a bears fan, you may say so. I'm neither, but I'd like to think that I can be objective... I wouldn't give him my vote. not because he wasn't great, he was amazing. he also was on some shitty teams. he also did it all--but the longevity just was.not.there. after nine seasons, add 4700 yards... that gives him nine full seasons (see also, jim brown) and 11,600 yards. THAT is a hall-of-famer to me. you have to look at the body of work, and it just isn't quite there for either payton OR sayers after 67-68 games. but, that's the great thing about these conversations--it's my opinion, nothing more or nothing less.

[Thig Lyfe]

Originally Posted by Mosbonian

Ahhhh....so you are a pretender?

You steppin' to?????

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by H5N1

I have only two times leading the league in yards twice, one of which he ALSO led in total yards--that doesn't equate to two times in one season to me, though. TD numbers are also a bit off, but that doesn't include pr/kr touchdowns for some reason, and I know he had more than a few, so I'll give you that one.

Considering Sayers without considering the return game is a little like considering Marshall Faulk without considering receiving numbers.

[Ebolapox]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Closest analog I can think of, what if Tom Brady ended his undefeated season with a SB win, then Pollard's knee job ended things for good? Too short of a career?

hmmmm.... that would've given him the following (these are estimations, not precise--I don't have the patience for a full analysis like I just did for walter payton)

110 games started
around 62.5% completion percentage
3600 attempts
25,700ish yards
200 touchdowns
86 interceptions
yards per attempt: 7.5 or so
yards per game: 240 or so
4/4 in super bowls, ton of playoff wins

all of this in seven full seasons as starting QB... yeah, those numbers are no doubt. but, you have to remember that for QBs, super bowls are the only real number that counts. his numbers are good to great (more than 2:1 TD/INT ratio, plenty of yards, lot of yards per game), but the super bowls make it a no-doubter. the REAL question would be this... what if a QB comes out and wins the super bowl his first four years in the league, about 3500 yards per year, 30 touchdowns per year, few interceptions... is HE a hall-of-famer? I'd have to think really long and hard about that one.

[Ebolapox]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

Considering Sayers without considering the return game is a little like considering Marshall Faulk without considering receiving numbers.

for what it's worth, wiki is the only source I could find on returns... they say he rarely returned punts, but credited him with two punt return touchdowns to go with 6 kick return touchdowns. let's say 2500 yards returning, kicks and punts. that would put (with walter payton's kick/punt returns) them about equal in both yards (returns and from scrimmage) and payton ahead on touchdowns and rushing yards.

my point still stands, though. do you put walter payton in the hall of fame after five seasons?

[Baby Lee]

Originally Posted by H5N1

for what it's worth, wiki is the only source I could find on returns... they say he rarely returned punts, but credited him with two punt return touchdowns to go with 6 kick return touchdowns. let's say 2500 yards returning, kicks and punts. that would put (with walter payton's kick/punt returns) them about equal in both yards (returns and from scrimmage) and payton ahead on touchdowns and rushing yards.

my point still stands, though. do you put walter payton in the hall of fame after five seasons?

Well, he's one of the few celebs I've had an actual conversation with, and got my picture taken with [he was hosting a lobbying dinner trying to bring an NFL team to St. Louis in Jeff City in 1992]. And the 85 Bears were the first team I followed passionately [didn't get into the Chiefs until 87-88 when Dino Hackett caught my eye]. So I can't be objective.