Chiefs Vance Walker and backup NT - Page 3

**RealSNR** · 08-09-2014, 02:40 PM

I never really understood this whole playing Walker at NT thing the Chiefs are doing. I know it's one preseason game, but many people are commenting how Walker was kind of poopy.

Bob Sutton had pretty much the same thing to say in today's press conference:

“Vance, we had to move out to big end—he’s played inside. And that’s part of this camp too. We got to develop some depth here and some games we don’t take as many D-linemen in the game so somebody has got to be able to play multiple positions. So, they’re playing similar positions but I wouldn’t say they’re the exact same positions.”

So Walker IS going to play end primarily. Jaye Howard was listed as a NT for much of last year even though he didn't play a down until the final San Diego game. He's been playing end for us, and while he made one or two impressive plays, he was no more effective against the run than Walker was.

So we've got great rotational depth at DE with all kinds of options and still not much at the nose except on 3rd down when we shift a smaller guy inside. The same problem as last year.

Can anybody else wrap their minds around this? If we're playing Walker at nose just for the time being so they can get experience playing all positions, then who is our real backup NT? I'd like to hope it would be Howard, but the Chiefs seem to still think that guy is an end. And when the final roster comes out, we've got these bodies we need to fit in:

DeVito
Poe
Bailey
Catapano
Walker
Howard

That's 5 ends and no true backup NT. Unless we keep 7 guys, and it would be kind of unfortunate to keep around a worthless dicksack like Kyle Love instead of a promising lineman like Frenchie or a core special teams player.

What do you think?

milkman · 08-09-2014, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun

They had in-house options for nearly everything.

Bailey + Catapano for Jackson
Fisher for Albert
the draft for Hali (imminent), Flowers (imminent), and McCluster
promoting Abdullah and the ill-fated return of Commings

Not exactly an improvement in talent, but yeah.

Signing Vance Walker (the other "try" that I forgot to mention) tells you that they didn't have confidence in Bailey and Catapano.

The rest, other than DAT was all about the future, not about the present.

In short, they did jack.

Jiu Jitsu Jon · 08-09-2014, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef

It's weird, because the Broncos needed help in pass rush, the secondary, and maybe at WR, with Decker's departure, so they...

Oh.

I had hoped the Raiders would target Decker in FA but it looks like Reggie isn't a big spender. That may change after Dennis Allen is fired.

milkman · 08-09-2014, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiu Jitsu Jon

I had hoped the Raiders would target Decker in FA but it looks like Reggie isn't a big spender. That may change after Dennis Allen is fired.

McKenzie, like Dorsey, came over from the Pack, so probably subcribes to the same build through draft approach.

So it shouldn't be surprising that he isn't a big spender.

ThaVirus · 08-09-2014, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef

It's weird, because the Broncos needed help in pass rush, the secondary, and maybe at WR, with Decker's departure, so they...

Oh.

Dream Team 2.0.

You actually think that'll work out?

**Dave Lane** · 08-09-2014, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

McKenzie, like Dorsey, came over from the Pack, so probably subcribes to the same build through draft approach.

So it shouldn't be surprising that he isn't a big spender.

Well to be honest after Dorsey got his shit pushed in in FA last year he's got to be a little gun shy. That may have been the worst group of FAs to gobble up $30 million in cap space in history.

MagicHef · 08-09-2014, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

Dream Team 2.0.

You actually think that'll work out?

Yes, they'll be one of the best teams in the league.

Everyone was calling them "Dream Team" last year, and it sure worked out pretty well.

John Dope · 08-10-2014, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

Dream Team 2.0.

You actually think that'll work out?

No

That strategy never seems to work. It's hard to get chemistry when you do that.

chiefzilla1501 · 08-10-2014, 08:32 AM

I'd wait until the end of the season to figure out if Walker was a good signing or not. I still think it was. It's a cheap salary for a guy I think will be an upgrade over Tyson Jackson. Still believe that. He's probably playing a bit of nose because Sutton wants players with a lot of versatility. It's a great way to add some trickery and especially critical given how hard it is to make substitutions against hurry up offenses.

I don't think the problem is Walker. I'm worried about the scheme. The Ryan defense relies on a lot of 2-gap. The value of DeVito was supposed to be that he could play 5-technique or 0-technique. If he's slimming down, that's not true anymore. Dorsey said he brought Walker in because they realized midway through last season that you have to have quicker DEs than Ryan's defense traditionally used. So if you want to get lighter and quicker at DE, but still want the versatility to have them play nose, then something is off. I think that part of the scheme is fixable. But it's one of those times you wish you had the architect (Ryan) instead of the student (Sutton).

htismaqe · 08-10-2014, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flybone McTimmerson

He was brought in to give a pass rush from the DE spot.

So they're playing him as the backup NT to do that?

chiefzilla1501 · 08-10-2014, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

So they're playing him as the backup NT to do that?

Sure. Why not? This is a good signing I can stand behind. He'll be better than Tyson Jackson, he's dirt cheap, and he's easy to cut. Same deal with Mays.

The strategy isn't a bad one. Same one we used with Fasano, Devito, Schwartz, Avery. But for the strategy to work, they have to get more draft players to come in so we can get out of these veteran contracts and so far we haven't seen that. In this case, it's a great thing if the reason Walker is on the bench is because Catapano was better than expected. I hope the same happens at ILB too.

The idea that the Chiefs feel obligated to keep him on the roster is silly. They can pretty much get rid of him any time they want to and not take a big haircut.

milkman · 08-10-2014, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

So they're playing him as the backup NT to do that?

I think McFly is right.

The primary reason for signing Walker was to play him at DE to address the need for a pass rush from that spot.

Over the course of OTAs and training camp, though, they found out that they had better options potentially in Bailey and Catapano, so they had to find a way to utilize, and justify, that signing.

If preseason game #1 is any indication, it looks like that experiment is going to fail.

htismaqe · 08-10-2014, 09:11 AM

He isn't better than Tyson Jackson if he isn't on the field. There's no reason to play him out of position. If he's a DE, he can be a backup DE just as easily as a backup NT.

The simple fact is they didn't address the backup NT position and now they're jamming square pegs in round holes trying to figure it out.

Saccopoo · 08-10-2014, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flybone McTimmerson

Well that's freaking stupid. Why does it feel like they didn't address any of the sore spots from last year? Shitty receivers? **** it. No Free Safety? **** it. Star Nose Tackle being played beyond his limits? **** it. At least we got Aaron Murray, though.

FYP

And I think that this is a wonderful time to bring up the conundrum that is/was Jerrell Powe.

During the preseasons, he provided a better pocket push than Poe, seemed to be able to do everything that you'd want from a NT, and yet he's a complete ghost for the regular season when they are turning Poe into the defensive equivalent of Jamaal Charles.

Now we are back to the same situation of not having a competent NT because they don't want to carry two true NT's versus having one of multiple five techs on the roster swing down inside on subpackages.

I still don't get it (the Powe thing).

chiefzilla1501 · 08-10-2014, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

He isn't better than Tyson Jackson if he isn't on the field. There's no reason to play him out of position. If he's a DE, he can be a backup DE just as easily as a backup NT.

The simple fact is they didn't address the backup NT position and now they're jamming square pegs in round holes trying to figure it out.

Oh yeah, they absolutely failed to bring in a nose tackle. Stupid stupid.

If they're expecting Walker to be an NT full time, that's stupid. I just tend to think they are giving him reps at NT to see if he can be a DE with ability to flex to NT. If so, great move, because it starts to make Devito expendable.

ThaVirus · 08-10-2014, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Yes, they'll be one of the best teams in the league.

Everyone was calling them "Dream Team" last year, and it sure worked out pretty well.

They were calling you guys the Dream Team last season?

Of course you'll be one of the best teams. You were one of the best teams last season and only added guys. But you did so in the hopes that it would put you over the hump (you know, the SB slaughter hump). Do you think you'll be able to take home the Lombardi this season?

08-09-2014, 02:40 PM
RealSNR Special Teams ACE!!! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Where the hell is SNR Casino cash: $905208	Vance Walker and backup NT I never really understood this whole playing Walker at NT thing the Chiefs are doing. I know it's one preseason game, but many people are commenting how Walker was kind of poopy. Bob Sutton had pretty much the same thing to say in today's press conference: “Vance, we had to move out to big end—he’s played inside. And that’s part of this camp too. We got to develop some depth here and some games we don’t take as many D-linemen in the game so somebody has got to be able to play multiple positions. So, they’re playing similar positions but I wouldn’t say they’re the exact same positions.” So Walker IS going to play end primarily. Jaye Howard was listed as a NT for much of last year even though he didn't play a down until the final San Diego game. He's been playing end for us, and while he made one or two impressive plays, he was no more effective against the run than Walker was. So we've got great rotational depth at DE with all kinds of options and still not much at the nose except on 3rd down when we shift a smaller guy inside. The same problem as last year. Can anybody else wrap their minds around this? If we're playing Walker at nose just for the time being so they can get experience playing all positions, then who is our real backup NT? I'd like to hope it would be Howard, but the Chiefs seem to still think that guy is an end. And when the final roster comes out, we've got these bodies we need to fit in: DeVito Poe Bailey Catapano Walker Howard That's 5 ends and no true backup NT. Unless we keep 7 guys, and it would be kind of unfortunate to keep around a worthless dicksack like Kyle Love instead of a promising lineman like Frenchie or a core special teams player. What do you think?
Posts: 91,788

08-10-2014, 08:32 AM	#38
chiefzilla1501 In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2008 Casino cash: $634497	I'd wait until the end of the season to figure out if Walker was a good signing or not. I still think it was. It's a cheap salary for a guy I think will be an upgrade over Tyson Jackson. Still believe that. He's probably playing a bit of nose because Sutton wants players with a lot of versatility. It's a great way to add some trickery and especially critical given how hard it is to make substitutions against hurry up offenses. I don't think the problem is Walker. I'm worried about the scheme. The Ryan defense relies on a lot of 2-gap. The value of DeVito was supposed to be that he could play 5-technique or 0-technique. If he's slimming down, that's not true anymore. Dorsey said he brought Walker in because they realized midway through last season that you have to have quicker DEs than Ryan's defense traditionally used. So if you want to get lighter and quicker at DE, but still want the versatility to have them play nose, then something is off. I think that part of the scheme is fixable. But it's one of those times you wish you had the architect (Ryan) instead of the student (Sutton).
Posts: 49,213

08-10-2014, 09:11 AM	#42
htismaqe 'Tis my eye! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Chiefsplanet Casino cash: $10239900	He isn't better than Tyson Jackson if he isn't on the field. There's no reason to play him out of position. If he's a DE, he can be a backup DE just as easily as a backup NT. The simple fact is they didn't address the backup NT position and now they're jamming square pegs in round holes trying to figure it out.
Posts: 100,035