***Official 2014 STL Cardinals thread part II***

[BigRedChief]

Original thread was getting to large for the board

2011 WS Championship
2012 one win from another WS
2013 two wins from another WS title
2014 Central Division title and NLCS series win (so far)

This is a franchise that has made the postseason 10 times in the last 14 seasons.

Only 1 losing season since 2000.

Reached the World Series 4 times since 2004 and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.

Our new Manager has more post season experience than any other manager in baseball, except the Giants manager.

Made the NLCS 8 times

Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.

60 post season wins since 2004. 20+ wins more than any other team.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Isn't Heyward a rental? Since when do we trade a "potential" #1 for a rental?

There is a decent chance we sign him long-term. With his injury history and recent dip in power, the contract may be reasonable if he would rather do that than risk the unknowns of free agency.

Shelby has had the potential for years and never quite got there. I grew very tired of the front office treating every guy on the roster and the farm system as a future hall-of-famer and refusing to deal a surplus in one area to address a need somewhere else. That's how you end up with Shane Robinson and DD as your top two bench bats.

[kcpasco]

Now sign Lester or Scherzer, pick up a right handed bat and call it an offseason.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by kcpasco

Hopefully Heyward can learn to not swing at those high fastballs.

If he can his OBP% will go up and solidify the lead off position. Drop Carpenter to #2 to allow his doubles to drive home Heyward.

Originally Posted by kcpasco

I bet Mo was already thinking about signing him long term before he made this trade.

Hope so because we just gave up 10 years of control for 3 years.

But, at least we got Nesheck's replacement in the deal.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Swanman

Shelby has had the potential for years and never quite got there. I grew very tired of the front office treating every guy on the roster and the farm system as a future hall-of-famer and refusing to deal a surplus in one area to address a need somewhere else. That's how you end up with Shane Robinson and DD as your top two bench bats.

I agree that we over value prospects but on the other hand drafting well is not our teams main flaw. And I agree that Miller not reaching his potential was frustrating. Maybe for the front office and players too? Maybe thats why they made the move?

Originally Posted by Swanman

There is a decent chance we sign him long-term. With his injury history and recent dip in power, the contract may be reasonable if he would rather do that than risk the unknowns of free agency.

If he lights it up, it won't be cheap then.

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

If he lights it up, it won't be cheap then.

The best case scenario is that you lock him up before the season for a reasonable number and then he lights it up. If they don't sign him and he ends up becoming too expensive, at least they get a first round comp pick. Given how Mo operates, I think long-term contract is something that was already thought about before the trade. They have the flexibility to get something done.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Swanman

The best case scenario is that you lock him up before the season for a reasonable number and then he lights it up. If they don't sign him and he ends up becoming too expensive, at least they get a first round comp pick. Given how Mo operates, I think long-term contract is something that was already thought about before the trade. They have the flexibility to get something done.

I saw a breakdown on Vivalabirdos.

Bottom line is that after the arbitration raises, the players moving on etc. we have $20 Million free this upcoming season without raising payroll a single $ from last year. And last years payroll was too low. Gould was saying that the Cardinals can afford a $150 million payroll and still make $20 million in profit.

[duncan_idaho]

Nice deal for the Cards, I think, if they can extend Heyward before the season.

Walden is also a nice piece and gives additional insurance for Rosenthal, should he continue to struggle to have clean outings.

Even if he doesn't hit better, Heyward still makes whatever team he plays a lot better because of his OBP, baserunning and defense. Just a solid, winning piece, IMO.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

As good of a trade as you can hope for. There is risk given Miller's upside and Jenkins's performance in the AFL, but eventually you have to realize that not all of these prospects are going to be 6 WAR stalwarts

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

Nice deal for the Cards, I think, if they can extend Heyward before the season.

Braves fans don't like the deal.
http://www.braves-nation.com/threads...-jenkins.1504/

I don't know what they got to bitch about. Boras was going to want top market $ and the Brave obviously were not going to pay that money. Got something of value instead of nothing next year.

[O.city]

If he can develop as a hitter he's an mvp candidate.

Dunno if he ever will though

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

As good of a trade as you can hope for. There is risk given Miller's upside and Jenkins's performance in the AFL, but eventually you have to realize that not all of these prospects are going to be 6 WAR stalwarts

Miller's trade is another negative result for everyone involved because Taveras decided to drive drunk

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by O.city

If he can develop as a hitter he's an mvp candidate.

Dunno if he ever will though

The Cardinals are telling everyone that they have decided that Miller will never be a #1. No way they make this trade for a potential #1 starter. Too bad someone else didn't take Miller in the draft. Mo said they were taking Trout if Miller wasn't there.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

You can't bemoan that in baseball when you get a really productive player anyway. Shelby Miller was a damned good draft pick.

Also, let's consider the potential upside of this trade:

Heyward can be an elite RF. We had a black hole there. This also might open up a spot in the rotation for Martinez, which could make the entire trade worth it, since Matheny is loathe to use him anywhere other than the eighth. Mozeliak was presented with a glaring hole and dealt with it from a position of strength while potentially not really weakening said strength. Maybe Heyward leaves and Miller turns into a healthy Chris Carpenter and Jenkins becomes an ace. It's not impossible. But given what the Cardinals know about their players and what Heyward has done at this point in his career (and his number of prime years left) this is a deal you can't pass up.

Bottenfield for Edmonds doesn't exist anymore.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Braves fans don't like the deal.
http://www.braves-nation.com/threads...-jenkins.1504/

I don't know what they got to bitch about. Boras was going to want top market $ and the Brave obviously were not going to pay that money. Got something of value instead of nothing next year.

I get it, from their end. To like the deal for Atlanta, you have to believe Shelby Miller can be a No. 2-type starter. He's still got that potential. Jenkins also has a lot of helium, if he can just stay healthy.

Having a young starting rotation of Minor, Wood, Teheran, Miller is not bad, especially if Hart is trying to do a rebuild without completely tanking.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

You can't bemoan that in baseball when you get a really productive player anyway. Shelby Miller was a damned good draft pick.

Also, let's consider the potential upside of this trade:

Heyward can be an elite RF. We had a black hole there. This also might open up a spot in the rotation for Martinez, which could make the entire trade worth it, since Matheny is loathe to use him anywhere other than the eighth. Mozeliak was presented with a glaring hole and dealt with it from a position of strength while potentially not really weakening said strength. Maybe Heyward leaves and Miller turns into a healthy Chris Carpenter and Jenkins becomes an ace. It's not impossible. But given what the Cardinals know about their players and what Heyward has done at this point in his career (and his number of prime years left) this is a deal you can't pass up.

Bottenfield for Edmonds doesn't exist anymore.

Heyward also gives the Cardinals a young, potential superstar everyday player (if they can retain him), something that the team probably doesn't have at the MLB level or close right now.

Molina and Holliday have been those types of hitters (and probably still have a few more years left), but they're aging. Oscar Taveras was supposed to be that next superstar guy. Heyward replaces that potential, though at a much higher cost.