***Official 2015 STL Cardinals Thread***

[BigRedChief]

2011 World Series Championship
2012 NLCS. One win from another WS appearance.
2013 World Series. Two wins from another World Series Championship
2014 NLCS. Three wins from another WS appearance

• Made the postseason 10 times in the last 14 seasons.
• Only 1 losing season since 2000.
• Reached the World Series 4 times since 2004 and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.
• Made the NLCS 9 times including the last 4 years 2011-2014
• Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.
• 65 post season wins since 2004. 22+ wins more than any other team.

[O.city]

Well, that was the cement mixer he should have crushed

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Damn.

Can't win 'em all. Too bad to waste a good start like that from Lynn. At least the other non-Sale starters are dogshit.

[O.city]

1st base is a death hole for us

[kcpasco]

Originally Posted by O.city

Anyone else getting tired of watching reynolds?

I think Mo is realizing he can't live with Reynolds at 1st base all year. If we make only 1 single trade it will be help at first. And no Scruggs is not the answer.

I wouldn't mind seeing what the Sox would want for LaRoche.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by O.city

Anyone else getting tired of watching reynolds?

Getting exposed. Not his fault. He is suppose to be the guy off the bench.

Still not interested in giving up anything of value to get a run down 1B. Unless its Napoli. Change of scenery maybe catch lightening in a bottle?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Grichuk can spell Heyward against LHP and give Holliday a day off per week. That should get him a decent # of ABs while also keeping him in a position to succeed.

If Heyward continues to open up his front half on inside pitches while maintaining his plate coverage on the outer third, there's no reason to platoon him. His approach against lefties has actually been pretty sound most of the season because lefties struggle to get inside on him.

Personally, I think Grichuk's defense is a little overrated but he's a sound defensive player in CF. He's probably about Jay's equal in terms of range (Jay really does well getting back on balls unless they're straight at him), but obviously has a far stronger arm. Offensively his power just can't be ignored.

There's no question that Jay has no business starting again once Holliday returns. With Wong's ability to handle the leadoff role admirably (and the backup plan of putting Carpenter there), Jay's OBP fit at the top of the order, even if he were still a plus player in that regard, is no longer as important. The book is closed on Grichuk vs. Jay and Grichuk wins in a walk.

I'm still not willing to bury Bourjos, however. Bourjos just brings so much to the team defense as a whole and his speed on the bases makes things happen. We've won 2 games in extras this season on weak choppers that should've been DP balls where he simply forced an error by hauling ass home. Now the counter to that would be that perhaps his erratic bat makes him best suited for situational deployment; pinch running and the like. Personally I don't think he's received enough ABs to give up on him being a neutral offensive weapon if starting.

At this point I'd probably look to get both Bourjos and Grichuk roughly 4 starts/wk with Heyward/Holliday getting 5 each. If you figure on 6 games/wk on average, that gives you 18 starts to rotate among the 4 players, 4, 4, 5, 5, works out perfectly. That would only be about 135 starts on a season for Heyward so I wouldn't go with a strict 5/wk for Heyward - he'd get 6 in a lot of weeks for me. I would think that 145 starts is a good number for him over a full season. Heyward's starts would probably come at Bourjos's expense as I value his D/Speed off the bench quite a bit so he'd be pretty handy even when he's not starting.

It's time to bury Jay, though. He just serves no purpose here.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

Well, that was the cement mixer he should have crushed

I presume you are reference the 2nd pitch of the AB to Scruggs here, because yeah, that should have been destroyed.

You knew the game was over when he missed that pitch. He simply wasn't picking Robertson up at all.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

If Heyward continues to open up his front half on inside pitches while maintaining his plate coverage on the outer third, there's no reason to platoon him. His approach against lefties has actually been pretty sound most of the season because lefties struggle to get inside on him.

Personally, I think Grichuk's defense is a little overrated but he's a sound defensive player in CF. He's probably about Jay's equal in terms of range (Jay really does well getting back on balls unless they're straight at him), but obviously has a far stronger arm. Offensively his power just can't be ignored.

There's no question that Jay has no business starting again once Holliday returns. With Wong's ability to handle the leadoff role admirably (and the backup plan of putting Carpenter there), Jay's OBP fit at the top of the order, even if he were still a plus player in that regard, is no longer as important. The book is closed on Grichuk vs. Jay and Grichuk wins in a walk.

I'm still not willing to bury Bourjos, however. Bourjos just brings so much to the team defense as a whole and his speed on the bases makes things happen. We've won 2 games in extras this season on weak choppers that should've been DP balls where he simply forced an error by hauling ass home. Now the counter to that would be that perhaps his erratic bat makes him best suited for situational deployment; pinch running and the like. Personally I don't think he's received enough ABs to give up on him being a neutral offensive weapon if starting.

At this point I'd probably look to get both Bourjos and Grichuk roughly 4 starts/wk with Heyward/Holliday getting 5 each. If you figure on 6 games/wk on average, that gives you 18 starts to rotate among the 4 players, 4, 4, 5, 5, works out perfectly. That would only be about 135 starts on a season for Heyward so I wouldn't go with a strict 5/wk for Heyward - he'd get 6 in a lot of weeks for me. I would think that 145 starts is a good number for him over a full season. Heyward's starts would probably come at Bourjos's expense as I value his D/Speed off the bench quite a bit so he'd be pretty handy even when he's not starting.

It's time to bury Jay, though. He just serves no purpose here.

I tip my cap to jay, thank him for his service and move on. He's not a bad player, maybe we could get a decent backup catcher for him, DFA cruz, and kill 2 birds with one stone.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I presume you are reference the 2nd pitch of the AB to Scruggs here, because yeah, that should have been destroyed.

You knew the game was over when he missed that pitch. He simply wasn't picking Robertson up at all.

Yes.

Heyward missed a middle in fastball in the 8th, same with yadi.

[O.city]

So, would anyone have an interest in more starting pitching? I'd think thats dead, but a warm body who could eat some innings to give Carlos and Wacha a break would be nice, no?

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I presume you are reference the 2nd pitch of the AB to Scruggs here, because yeah, that should have been destroyed.

You knew the game was over when he missed that pitch. He simply wasn't picking Robertson up at all.

Several players missed pitches that they should have mashed after Sale left.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by O.city

So, would anyone have an interest in more starting pitching? I'd think thats dead, but a warm body who could eat some innings to give Carlos and Wacha a break would be nice, no?

No, way too costly to add pitchers at the break. Especially this year when so many teams need pitching.

With our lead we don't have to give up prospects to give Wacha and Martinez a break so they can still pitch at their top level in October.

Wacha/Lynn/Martinez/Lackey is as good as any playoff teams pitchers in the post season. I still don't count on Garcia making it to October before injury.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

It's time to bury Jay, though. He just serves no purpose here.

Core bible study member. He's going nowhere.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Personally, I think Grichuk's defense is a little overrated but he's a sound defensive player in CF. He's probably about Jay's equal in terms of range (Jay really does well getting back on balls unless they're straight at him), but obviously has a far stronger arm. Offensively his power just can't be ignored.

He is a way better defensive player than Jay. Grichuk can get to every ball that Jay can. He will take a better route and has a way better arm.

The guys on MLB were raving on Grichuk. They thought the raw power was worth it to play him until he learns to lay off the balls in the dirt. That skill can be taught. The power can't. Their words.


I don't get why you and Hamas are so hard on Grichuk. We all know this is not the best he is capable of. He looks like shit almost every game in at least one AB and sometimes every AB in a game. Even with the horrible AB's he is still hitting .284 with a .894OPS. How do you not play him over Jay/Bourjas?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

He is a way better defensive player than Jay. Grichuk can get to every ball that Jay can. He will take a better route and has a way better arm.

...

I don't get why you and Hamas are so hard on Grichuk. We all know this is not the best he is capable of. He looks like shit almost every game in at least one AB and sometimes every AB in a game. Even with the horrible AB's he is still hitting .284 with a .894OPS. How do you not play him over Jay/Bourjas?

A) You're just making my point here - no, he's not a 'way' better defensive player than Jay. He isn't as good getting back on balls as Jay is and it's getting back on balls that saves XBHs. A double about 66% more likely to yield a run than a double. What Jay does well is slightly more likely to save a run than what Grichuk does well (it's how Heyward has also built such a sterling defensive rep). And no, Grichuk is not going to take a better route - Grichuk's made some great plays but he's done so despite his routes. Perhaps in time he'll get to that point, but its absurd to say that he's presently a more direct route-runner than Jay in CF.

Grichuk is a fringe GG candidate in the corners, but people are just completely ignoring the defensive spectrum when they act like he's just that good in CF as well. They do the same when they treat Jay as though he wouldn't be a plus corner OFer defensively (especially since he's been an above average defensive CFer).

No, Grichuk is not substantially better at tracking down fly balls than Jay is. He gets in on them better, Jay goes back on them better. Grichuk's lateral range is actually probably about the same as Jay's because Jay actually does take a better path to the ball. Grichuk has a better arm than Jay but of the 5 tools, arm is easily the least important. I'm not going to base a decision on a guys throwing arm. That's a bonus.

Jay had a putrid defensive season in 2013. Apart from that he's shown himself to be a plus defender in CF and this season has been no different. He's not elite defensively out there, but Grichuk isn't either. You've allowed Dan and Al to convince you that Grichuk's is a world class sprinter and that's simply not the case. Grichuk is an above average runner with slightly above average speed for a CFer. That's it. He's not a gold glove CFer.

B) I'd play Bourjos over Grichuk (well that's not true, I'd timeshare the two) precisely because I think you're wildly overrated Grichuk's speed and his defense. The fact that you're buying guys that say 'laying off balls in the dirt' is something you can just teach the guy shows me you're just hearing what you want to hear. This isn't his first year in pro ball - his minor league walk rate was also abysmal. This is who Randal Grichik is offensively - he's a mad hacker that swings hard in case he hits it. That's who he'll always be. The list of guys that suddenly found religion as it relates to strike zone discipline is INCREDIBLY small. It doesn't happen. The guy has a sub 5 BB rate, a K rate of 30% and a BABIP of .370 - I don't know what to tell you if you can't see the myriad of problems that those figures present.

I'm not hard on Grichuk - I'm realistic as to some extremely large holes in his game. He's going to get over-exposed, the same way Reynolds has. Bourjos brings an all-world glove to CF; a guy that can change the way your pitchers approach games. His skill set is simply something I value a great deal.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

You've allowed Dan and Al to convince you that Grichuk's is a world class sprinter and that's simply not the case. Grichuk is an above average runner with slightly above average speed for a CFer. That's it. He's not a gold glove CFer.

I get to listen to the Cardinals broadcast in only about 20% of the games I watch per year. So I doubt that. I can see. He has better speed than Jay.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

No, Grichuk is not substantially better at tracking down fly balls than Jay is. He gets in on them better, Jay goes back on them better. Grichuk's lateral range is actually probably about the same as Jay's because Jay actually does take a better path to the ball. Grichuk has a better arm than Jay but of the 5 tools, arm is easily the least important. I'm not going to base a decision on a guys throwing arm. That's a bonus.T

We will just agree to disagree on this part.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The fact that you're buying guys that say 'laying off balls in the dirt' is something you can just teach the guy shows me you're just hearing what you want to hear. T.

I was just saying they are saying that it can be learned. I have no clue if the know what the hell they are talking about. Just because they are ex-players doesn't mean they are great evaluators of talent.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

This is who Randal Grichik is offensively - he's a mad hacker that swings hard in case he hits it. That's who he'll always be. The list of guys that suddenly found religion as it relates to strike zone discipline is INCREDIBLY small. It doesn't happen. The guy has a sub 5 BB rate, a K rate of 30% and a BABIP of .370 - I don't know what to tell you if you can't see the myriad of problems that those figures present.

I agree. And it still makes him better than Jay.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Bourjos brings an all-world glove to CF; a guy that can change the way your pitchers approach games. His skill set is simply something I value a great deal.

So Bourjas gets a Dal Maxwell exception?

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'm not hard on Grichuk .

Agree to disagree on this point also.