Moral Judgement On Prostitutes

[vailpass]

So last night/this morning I had some people over. A friend brought a friend who, it turns out, is a high end prostitute. I don't roll like that, I pay for pussy in the traditional drinks and entertainment sort of way. This lady is beautiful, intelligent, and worldly. Great conversation but all I can think is "yeah but you're still a whore". Sharing this because bye week...

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

That's why I'm curious about the history of laws. Presumably the leaders of 100 or 500 or 1000 years ago saw some effect that they didn't like, but what was it? Was it disease, or was it a breakdown of "proper society", or was this just something they read in the Bible and decided to enforce?

I half-suspect that it was more about children than about disease. I bet the leaders of yon didn't want to see prostitutes having children, and the concern was more from a practical crime and poverty perspective than about religion or propriety. If that's the case, then it's not a risk today, or at least not as much, due to birth control options.

When we think about the risks of prostitution now versus historically, I could imagine the following:

- spread of disease. I'm not sure if this is a bigger problem now or a smaller problem. There are ways to treat most diseases now, but ... AIDS. That was n't around for most of human history. I guess it's probably the same risk now as ever, all in all, just different in how it manifests.

- environment and raising of children. That ship has already sailed for other reasons. If you're worried about kids growing up in poverty without two parents, you're a little too late. This is a much lower risk now than in the past, but only because it's pretty much already happening.

- breakdown of the institution of marriage. Well, 50 percent of marriages end in divorce now, so to some extent that risk is already realized. But the other 50 percent would add risk. And would men stop getting married? Maybe, but that's kind of happening already as marriage ages get older and older. So it's less of a risk now than in the past, but still likely a substantial risk.

- control of women's ability to economically support themselves. For some reason, past societies really didn't want women to be independent, which would be another good thread discussion. That's obviously highly diminished now, so it's not an issue of concern any more, and in fact has completely reversed. We want women to have economic independence.

- protection of women/crime prevention. Obviously, we don't want trafficking and slavery and forced prostitution. I would think that legalization would decrease this problem, but am not sure.

- objectification of women. This wasn't a problem in the past, but would be now. You don't want women to be propositioned constantly in their daily lives. I don't know if that would happen, but it's a risk now that's much bigger since women actually have status in modern society. If you legalized prostitution, I wonder if you'd have to make it illegal to solicit someone for sex, but legal to offer it (and accept the offer).

- religious beliefs. I'm just assuming that this was a driver at some point, and could be wrong. If so, it's probably still a concern for a large segment of society, and not a concern for another large segment.

- weird impacts on societal productivity. If prostitution was legal, how would it change the economy? Would it always be a niche? Would large proportions of women decide that they'd rather take that path than work other jobs? Would single men spend all their money on it? I have no idea how this would play out, but figure it's the same level of risk as it's always been.

That's why I'd be willing to let it happen. All of those questions would finally get answered, and "how it would-have played-out" in 1700bc, 200ad, 1232ad, 1492ad, 1814ad, and 1946ad simply don't matter because, as far as I know, a woman's place/opportunity in the world have never been what they are in 2014ad.

So any number of those "things" can't rely on any history that I know of to say they know how it will play-out. The religious people will look at it from their perspective, and they might be right when it comes to some of the initial social stigmas that woman would suffer, and they might be able to say it could affect population, and I'm sure after a few generations in our "me me me" culture that it would affect marriage, but hey, it's not like the marriage of 2014ad is anything like those of 732ad.

But I think one of the 800lb gorillas in the room is that sex would be seen for what it so often is, six. From stress relief to exercise, it's come a long way from being the only instrument for procreation and "a way for a man and woman to express their love for one another." It still is the latter, but we all know it's become a lot more the former "in everyday life" in recent centuries. Don't get me wrong, it's always been the former too, but it was just 'not talked about' and in some cases suppressed too.

And one other thing to throw out there that's another wrinkle in the worn-out bed sheet, is that while not every prostitute is hot, it's obvious that a woman's physical beauty gives her a certain advantage in that career field. Today's PC culture sure would have another reality to face in their quest for human equality. There would be examples that show "you don't have to be beautiful", but if this became a viable option for men seeking 15 minutes of pleasure, I'm all but certain that the hotter the contractor, the richer the contractor. Generally speaking dontchaknow...

[Katipan]

Originally Posted by GloryDayz

And one other thing to throw out there that's another wrinkle in the worn-out bed sheet, is that while not every prostitute is hot, it's obvious that a woman's physical beauty gives her a certain advantage in that career field. Today's PC culture sure would have another reality to face in their quest for human equality. There would be examples that show "you don't have to be beautiful", but if this became a viable option for men seeking 15 minutes of pleasure, I'm all but certain that the hotter the contractor, the richer the contractor. Generally speaking dontchaknow...

... We could have combines, and drafts, and fantasy leagues!

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by Katipan

... We could have combines, and drafts, and fantasy leagues!

Amsterdam is all over it.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by GloryDayz

That's why I'd be willing to let it happen. All of those questions would finally get answered, and "how it would-have played-out" in 1700bc, 200ad, 1232ad, 1492ad, 1814ad, and 1946ad simply don't matter because, as far as I know, a woman's place/opportunity in the world have never been what they are in 2014ad.

So any number of those "things" can't rely on any history that I know of to say they know how it will play-out. The religious people will look at it from their perspective, and they might be right when it comes to some of the initial social stigmas that woman would suffer, and they might be able to say it could affect population, and I'm sure after a few generations in our "me me me" culture that it would affect marriage, but hey, it's not like the marriage of 2014ad is anything like those of 732ad.

But I think one of the 800lb gorillas in the room is that sex would be seen for what it so often is, six. From stress relief to exercise, it's come a long way from being the only instrument for procreation and "a way for a man and woman to express their love for one another." It still is the latter, but we all know it's become a lot more the former "in everyday life" in recent centuries. Don't get me wrong, it's always been the former too, but it was just 'not talked about' and in some cases suppressed too.

And one other thing to throw out there that's another wrinkle in the worn-out bed sheet, is that while not every prostitute is hot, it's obvious that a woman's physical beauty gives her a certain advantage in that career field. Today's PC culture sure would have another reality to face in their quest for human equality. There would be examples that show "you don't have to be beautiful", but if this became a viable option for men seeking 15 minutes of pleasure, I'm all but certain that the hotter the contractor, the richer the contractor. Generally speaking dontchaknow...

I would be strongly in favor of legalization, in part because I think most of the problems associated with it are historical artifacts. Not to say that they're all solved now, but I think society has a better handle on them. Women have more autonomy, health education is higher, birth control is available, and so on.

At the same time, I'm curious whether there might be a bunch of unintended outcomes that we can't really predict. The old-timers targeted this market for a reason, and they've targeted it as far back as written human history.

I kind of want to legalize it just to see what would happen. My guess is that it would just remain a small niche that most people ignore, which I guess is kind of how it works in places like Amsterdam and rural Nevada. So maybe my question is already answered.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Katipan

... We could have combines, and drafts, and fantasy leagues!

I wonder if there's a way we could use Craigslist to do something like that. That would be fun.

[GloryDayz]

I agree, but for anybody who defends a woman's right "because it's her body", this is almost the perfect example of global hypocrisy (well, almost global).

But I totally agree that it would be one of the most interesting social experiments humans could embark upon.

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I would be strongly in favor of legalization, in part because I think most of the problems associated with it are historical artifacts. Not to say that they're all solved now, but I think society has a better handle on them. Women have more autonomy, health education is higher, birth control is available, and so on.

At the same time, I'm curious whether there might be a bunch of unintended outcomes that we can't really predict. The old-timers targeted this market for a reason, and they've targeted it as far back as written human history.

I kind of want to legalize it just to see what would happen. My guess is that it would just remain a small niche that most people ignore, which I guess is kind of how it works in places like Amsterdam and rural Nevada. So maybe my question is already answered.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by stevieray

question is... did vail fantasize about this women.....?

Intradasting. But no. I live a non standard life and don't give a **** who objects (not that that's you brother)...

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by J Diddy

Fantasize?

No

However, depending on how great a party he was having there is a chance of hallucination.

Either way she's real to him and in the end that's all that really matters.

(Thumbs up thingy here). My invite for a weekend of self defilement stands...

[J Diddy]

Originally Posted by vailpass

(Thumbs up thingy here). My invite for a weekend of self defilement stands...

I full on intend to take you up on that offer. Perhaps it will be my graduation present to myself.

[GloucesterChief]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I would be strongly in favor of legalization, in part because I think most of the problems associated with it are historical artifacts. Not to say that they're all solved now, but I think society has a better handle on them. Women have more autonomy, health education is higher, birth control is available, and so on.

At the same time, I'm curious whether there might be a bunch of unintended outcomes that we can't really predict. The old-timers targeted this market for a reason, and they've targeted it as far back as written human history.

I kind of want to legalize it just to see what would happen. My guess is that it would just remain a small niche that most people ignore, which I guess is kind of how it works in places like Amsterdam and rural Nevada. So maybe my question is already answered.

Religious puritanism basically. The religious prohibition on pre-marital sex and that prostitution was one of the only ways a woman could be economically free which in traditional religious traditions was a no-no. Madame's also could wield a lot of power behind the scenes as not only were they usually well off, they had blackmail material on many people.

In ancient cultures up until the Christianization of Rome the temple prostitute was a well known position for many religions.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I've never thought about this before, but how did prostitution ever become illegal? It appears that it's been of public interest for millennia, and there have long been laws and rules about it. But why?

For most of time, men ruled society. Why would men voluntarily limit the number of sexual partners they can have? That makes no sense at all.

When I think about the possible reasons, they could be:

1. It spread disease rapidly and the ruling men decided that it was such a threat that they voluntarily limited their access.

2. In the days before birth control and abortion, you ended up with a lot of little beggars running around because prostitutes tended to get pregnant a lot, so they voluntarily limited their access.

3. When religion had more power, religion didn't like it and limited access.

4. Conceivably, men were influenced by their wives, and the rulers' wives didn't like it.

When you think about voluntarily limiting one's own access to sexual partners, I guess there are a few different explanations as well.

1. Those in power recognized one of the issues above and decided that there was no other option.

2. Those in power kept their concubines and hookers, so this was a prohibition that applied only to the poor for the reasons listed above.

3. Those in power were religious people who weren't supposed to have sex anyway, so they didn't care about limiting sexual partners.


The bottom line, though, is that anti-prostitution laws seem improbable if the laws applied to those who were in power. So I have to think that they were applied to the masses and not to those in power.

Up until relatively recently in history, women were, in simplistic terms, property.
Also, "purity" (virginity) was the bee's knees.

There for, a woman selling it is doubly wrong.

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by GloucesterChief

Religious puritanism basically. The religious prohibition on pre-marital sex and that prostitution was one of the only ways a woman could be economically free which in traditional religious traditions was a no-no. Madame's also could wield a lot of power behind the scenes as not only were they usually well off, they had blackmail material on many people.

In ancient cultures up until the Christianization of Rome the temple prostitute was a well known position for many religions.

While this is true, it's only because we let it. If seeking the services of a prostitute held nothing more salacious than getting a legitimate massage, things would be better. But alas, modern man has been conditioned to draw the parallels between the two. That being said, I'm sure there are plenty of people who think a massage is barely shades of gray different that a Roman Orgy... LOL!

[Rain Man]

Off topic, I remember reading something in a history book once about the exploration of the South Pacific. Some ship anchored on an island, and the sailors figured out that the locals really, really liked nails. They didn't have metal and nails are pretty useful. So the sailors started trading nails for sex. The expedition ended up with a big delay because when they ran out of extra nails the sailors started removing nails from the ship, and eventually the main mast fell over.

I wish I could find a reference to it, but I remember reading it and thought it was funny.

[vailpass]

Originally Posted by J Diddy

I full on intend to take you up on that offer. Perhaps it will be my graduation present to myself.

Keep your nose in the books and your eye on the children. When the time is right we'll make it happen. Got you covered...

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Off topic, I remember reading something in a history book once about the exploration of the South Pacific. Some ship anchored on an island, and the sailors figured out that the locals really, really liked nails. They didn't have metal and nails are pretty useful. So the sailors started trading nails for sex. The expedition ended up with a big delay because when they ran out of extra nails the sailors started removing nails from the ship, and eventually the main mast fell over.

I wish I could find a reference to it, but I remember reading it and thought it was funny.

Of course it'll float skipper!!! I'll be right back and then we'll set sail, n'k?