Chiefs Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers - Page 11

thabear04 · 09-01-2015, 10:54 AM

http://www.chiefs.com/news/article-2...b-ae8aef50333d

1. Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers

“Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by.

“The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.”

Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks.” READ MORE…

In his first visit to Chiefs training camp in St. Joseph, former general manager Carl Peterson indulged an inquisitor about Derrick Thomas.

The cornerstone of the Chiefs’ success in the 1990s. … A game-changer with his speed and first step. … Not crushing quarterbacks but more interested in the forced fumble.

No more than 50 feet away as Peterson continued, a cadence of thwaps, like a boxer hitting a speed bag in perfect rhythm, diverted attention.

Justin Houston was getting in his post-practice work, a hand-eye coordination drill on a blocking sled. This is how Houston finished every day, he and Tamba Hali, and sometimes younger Chiefs following the leaders.

“Obviously a standout player,” Peterson said. “He’s on his way.”

(This story is part of The Kansas City Star’s Football 2015 special section that publishes Sunday, Aug. 30. Pick one up and check out more here.)

Perhaps one day to the place where Peterson was heading in the next few days — to Canton, Ohio, and the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Peterson would soon be there to pay tribute to inductee Will Shields, the great Chiefs offensive lineman.

While there, Peterson would also remember his friend, Thomas, his first draft pick as the Chiefs’ new general manager in 1989 and to whom he paid the ultimate tribute — Thomas’ posthumous Hall of Fame enshrinement speech in 2009.

“He has a chance,” Peterson said of Houston. “He has the talent, and, knock on wood, he stays healthy.”

Comparisons between Justin Houston and Derrick Thomas gained momentum as the 2014 season unfolded and Houston’s sack totals went from those of a solid Pro Bowl selection to epic.

Starting with the Chiefs’ third game, a victory at Miami, Houston recorded at least one sack in six straight games, including five in a two-game stretch.

At midseason, Houston had 12 sacks. Since Thomas’ final season in 1999, only two Chiefs have amassed that many sacks for an entire season: Jared Allen with 15 1/2 in 2007 and Hali with 14 1/2 in 2010.

Clearly, Houston was bound for something special.

After two games without a sack, a new streak started. Houston recorded at last one sack over the Chiefs’ final six games, culminating with a four-sack game in the finale against the San Diego Chargers. That matched the best game in the NFL last season.

The final tally: An NFL-best 22 sacks, eclipsing Thomas’ team record of 20 set in 1990 and falling half a sack short of Michael Strahan’s league record from 2001.

Following the path of Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier and Thomas, the Chiefs are convinced their next great linebacker has arrived. This summer, they rewarded Houston with a six-year, $101 million deal, with $52.5 million guaranteed.

The Chiefs speak of Houston as a cornerstone player, just as the organization described Thomas in the 1990s.

“He became a symbol of our success,” Peterson said. “He was our game-changer.”

Houston is becoming that player for the Chiefs. But can he become as productive as Derrick Thomas?

After four seasons, the former Southeastern Conference stars — Houston from Georgia, Thomas from Alabama — posted similar numbers. In 63 games, Thomas had 58 sacks and appeared in four Pro Bowls.

Houston has 48 1/2 sacks and three Pro Bowl appearances.

The biggest statistical gap speaks to their difference in playing styles. Four years into his career, Thomas had 21 forced fumbles. Houston has forced seven.

“John Elway said Derrick never wanted to kill him, he just wanted the take the ball from him,” Peterson said. “Derrick could change the course of a game with a single play. Invariably, when we needed a sack, Derrick, he’d get it. If we needed a fumble, he’d force it or get it.”

Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by.

“The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.”

Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks.

“Justin’s physicality is special,” Baldinger said. “So even if he doesn’t beat someone with his speed like Derrick could, he has the ability to bull-rush him.

“Also, you have to account for No. 50 when you’re run-blocking. He can defeat any tight end in the league. Ain’t no tight end that’s going to block him.”

Chiefs defensive coordinator Bob Sutton calls Houston an ideal power-and-speed player who brings versatility.

“We move him around a lot, which really helps us from a scheme standpoint,” Sutton said. “You don’t know where he’s going to be or what he’s going to do. Sometimes he plays inside, sometimes on the right side. For a guy to be able to do that, it helps us and makes him an effective player.”

One of the most important common denominators is what surrounds the two defensive playmakers.

A year before the Chiefs took Thomas in the first round with the fourth overall selection, they had drafted defensive Neil Smith from Nebraska with the second overall pick. Together, Thomas and Smith grew into a dynamic duo, playing off each other. They were teammates through the 1996 season, and Smith was a first-team All-Pro once and played in five Pro Bowls with the Chiefs.

Alongside Houston there’s Hali, a five-time Pro Bowler who is about to begin his 10th season. When Houston was breaking into the league, Hali absorbed the double teams. Now, it’s Houston drawing the double teams — and sometimes more.

“I told Tamba, ‘Go tell (Houston) he owes you some of that money,’” said Peterson, who drafted Hali. “‘You make him better and he makes you better.’”

Where the Chiefs would like to see Houston catch Thomas is in team success. Through their first four years, Thomas’ teams went to the playoffs three times. There would be three more years of playoff appearances, including the 1993 AFC championship game.

In 11 seasons, Thomas played for six playoff teams and three division winners. In Houston’s four seasons, the Chiefs have appeared in one playoff game and haven’t won a division title.

Houston has the sack record, and he has established himself as one of the NFL’s top players (and among its richest). Thomas’s first four years statistically were his best. Houston wants to keep rising.

“How do I top last year?” Houston said. “I put last year behind me and look forward to this year. I’m going to continue to do what I do …continue to stay focused and work like I’ve been working. Nothing changes.”

TALE OF THE TAPE
Here’s how Justin Houston stacks up with Derrick Thomas through their first four NFL seasons:

Houston Category Thomas

6 feet 3 Height 6 feet 3

258 Weight 255

59 Games played 63

48 1/2 Sacks (total) 58

22 Sacks (single-season high) 20

7 Forced fumbles 21

3 Pro Bowl selections 4

**the Talking Can** · 09-02-2015, 07:38 AM

Charles has averaged 5.5 yards per carry over his career...with mostly shitty coaches, OL, QB, and WRs

beginning and end of argument for me

ThaVirus · 09-02-2015, 10:10 AM

That's a good point.

In 2009, Larry Johnson averaged 2.9 YPC.

In 2010 and 2011, Thomas Jones averaged 3.7 and 3.1 YPC.

In 2013 and 2014, Knile Davis averaged 3.5 and 3.5 YPC.

Behind those exact same offensive lines Jamaal has averaged 5.5 YPC.

Chiefnj2 · 09-02-2015, 10:49 AM

I'd take Charles over Priest from the 1 yard line to the opponents 3. Goal line situations I'd give it to Priest.

DT was a better pass rusher than Houston. Houston is the better all around OLB. Much better against the run.

Nightfyre · 09-02-2015, 02:08 PM

Charles would score way more goal-line touchdowns behind the Roaf-Shields-Weigmann-Waters-Tait/Whoever line. Goal line TDs are all about who wins at the LOS, and guess what? The offensive line with four potential hall of famers is going to win more battles than the scrubs we have run out there for Charles.

Marcellus · 09-02-2015, 02:39 PM

JC will be a likely HOF player after his career. All you need to know.

DT is a HOFer and Houston is not, yet. I hope we get that kind of play out of him.

milkman · 09-02-2015, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

JC will be a likely HOF player after his career. All you need to know.

DT is a HOFer and Houston is not, yet. I hope we get that kind of play out of him.

Jamaal Charles needs a minimum of 3 years more of sustained excellence to even get consideration.

Right now, he is an afterthought in the national discussion of the leagues great RBs, if he is even mentioned, in spite of the fact that he is the best in the game.

Marcellus · 09-02-2015, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Jamaal Charles needs a minimum of 3 years more of sustained excellence to even get consideration.

Right now, he is an afterthought in the national discussion of the leagues great RBs, if he is even mentioned, in spite of the fact that he is the best in the game.

He is usually mentioned as 2nd best only to Adrain Peterson. Not sure what you are reading or listening to.

The difference is the position has been (wrongly) devalued so it's discussed less in general.

Pablo · 09-02-2015, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

JC will be a likely HOF player after his career. All you need to know.

DT is a HOFer and Houston is not, yet. I hope we get that kind of play out of him.

He has a decent shot if he keeps going hard for 3-4 more seasons. He's the best Chiefs RB I've watched it my lifetime. Priest was special in his own right, but he's got shit on Charles.

Chromatic · 09-02-2015, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop, Chiefs

That's because he isn't like Priest Holmes.

Also the people talking about OL don't know what they're talking about.

The 2001 Chiefs had a dogshit OL and Priest raped faces.

He was a ****ing freak. The 2001 line was pretty decent though. 2002-2005 was just unfair.

milkman · 09-02-2015, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

He is usually mentioned as 2nd best only to Adrain Peterson. Not sure what you are reading or listening to.

The difference is the position has been (wrongly) devalued so it's discussed less in general.

I only have access to 1 sports talk station when at work, the local ESPN affiliate, and I listen to it for the better part of 11 hours a day.

They rarely mention Charles when discussing great backs.

I have never heard any of them say that Charles was the 2nd best.

Sweet Daddy Hate · 09-02-2015, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Just thinking about some of the players on the line that Charles has run behind is making me cringe.

Ndukwe
O'Callahan
Richardson
Niswanger

And those are just from his first couple years, and it doesn't get any better.

5.5?

Hell, most backs would be lucky to get 3.5.

Someone tell he how terrible the current line is again, please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I only have access to 1 sports talk station when at work, the local ESPN affiliate, and I listen to it for the better part of 11 hours a day.

They rarely mention Charles when discussing great backs.

I have never heard any of them say that Charles was the 2nd best.

I don't recall Peterson winning any 'ships in his career either. I guess JC needs to start beating up on kids...

ThaVirus · 09-02-2015, 05:08 PM

Take a look at any comment chain on an NFL Facebook post. Jamaal has been criminally underrated for quite some time now despite being the most consistent back in the league, aside from maybe Adrian Peterson, since 2009.

He has no rushing titles, no playoff wins, no MVPs and no signature runs. He plays for a small market, he's small, and for all his speed, his playing style is far from flashy. I'd say those are the many reasons he gets overlooked.

ThaVirus · 09-02-2015, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromatic

He was a ****ing freak. The 2001 line was pretty decent though. 2002-2005 was just unfair.

This actually perfectly illustrates what I was talking about.

Check out the run TD at 1:20. Ball's snapped from the 7 yard line, straight up the middle and not a single defender touches him until the half-yard line. And that wasn't an isolated event. It happened quite often with that crew of offensive linemen.

Marcellus · 09-02-2015, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

This actually perfectly illustrates what I was talking about.

Check out the run TD at 1:20. Ball's snapped from the 7 yard line, straight up the middle and not a single defender touches him until the half-yard line. And that wasn't an isolated event. It happened quite often with that crew of offensive linemen.

I loved me some Priest Holmes and he is the 2nd best RB I have ever watched play in KC but those 3 TD's were absolutely nothing special.

On the pass he was all alone nobody within 10 yards of him and nobody to really beat and the 2 runs the OL and Richardson blew people off the ball so bad they were looking for people to block down field.

**DaneMcCloud** · 09-02-2015, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

I loved me some Priest Holmes and he is the 2nd best RB I have ever watched play in KC but those 3 TD's were absolutely nothing special.

You couldn't recognize the patience and burst in his running?

Not surprising.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus

On the pass he was all alone nobody within 10 yards of him and nobody to really beat and the 2 runs the OL and Richardson blew people off the ball so bad they were looking for people to block down field.

09-01-2015, 10:54 AM
thabear04 MTFU Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The Valley Heat Casino cash: $5570450	Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers http://www.chiefs.com/news/article-2...b-ae8aef50333d 1. Justin Houston or Derrick Thomas? Similar looks four years into careers “Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by. “The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.” Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks.” READ MORE… In his first visit to Chiefs training camp in St. Joseph, former general manager Carl Peterson indulged an inquisitor about Derrick Thomas. The cornerstone of the Chiefs’ success in the 1990s. … A game-changer with his speed and first step. … Not crushing quarterbacks but more interested in the forced fumble. No more than 50 feet away as Peterson continued, a cadence of thwaps, like a boxer hitting a speed bag in perfect rhythm, diverted attention. Justin Houston was getting in his post-practice work, a hand-eye coordination drill on a blocking sled. This is how Houston finished every day, he and Tamba Hali, and sometimes younger Chiefs following the leaders. “Obviously a standout player,” Peterson said. “He’s on his way.” (This story is part of The Kansas City Star’s Football 2015 special section that publishes Sunday, Aug. 30. Pick one up and check out more here.) Perhaps one day to the place where Peterson was heading in the next few days — to Canton, Ohio, and the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Peterson would soon be there to pay tribute to inductee Will Shields, the great Chiefs offensive lineman. While there, Peterson would also remember his friend, Thomas, his first draft pick as the Chiefs’ new general manager in 1989 and to whom he paid the ultimate tribute — Thomas’ posthumous Hall of Fame enshrinement speech in 2009. “He has a chance,” Peterson said of Houston. “He has the talent, and, knock on wood, he stays healthy.” Comparisons between Justin Houston and Derrick Thomas gained momentum as the 2014 season unfolded and Houston’s sack totals went from those of a solid Pro Bowl selection to epic. Starting with the Chiefs’ third game, a victory at Miami, Houston recorded at least one sack in six straight games, including five in a two-game stretch. At midseason, Houston had 12 sacks. Since Thomas’ final season in 1999, only two Chiefs have amassed that many sacks for an entire season: Jared Allen with 15 1/2 in 2007 and Hali with 14 1/2 in 2010. Clearly, Houston was bound for something special. After two games without a sack, a new streak started. Houston recorded at last one sack over the Chiefs’ final six games, culminating with a four-sack game in the finale against the San Diego Chargers. That matched the best game in the NFL last season. The final tally: An NFL-best 22 sacks, eclipsing Thomas’ team record of 20 set in 1990 and falling half a sack short of Michael Strahan’s league record from 2001. Following the path of Bobby Bell, Willie Lanier and Thomas, the Chiefs are convinced their next great linebacker has arrived. This summer, they rewarded Houston with a six-year, $101 million deal, with $52.5 million guaranteed. The Chiefs speak of Houston as a cornerstone player, just as the organization described Thomas in the 1990s. “He became a symbol of our success,” Peterson said. “He was our game-changer.” Houston is becoming that player for the Chiefs. But can he become as productive as Derrick Thomas? After four seasons, the former Southeastern Conference stars — Houston from Georgia, Thomas from Alabama — posted similar numbers. In 63 games, Thomas had 58 sacks and appeared in four Pro Bowls. Houston has 48 1/2 sacks and three Pro Bowl appearances. The biggest statistical gap speaks to their difference in playing styles. Four years into his career, Thomas had 21 forced fumbles. Houston has forced seven. “John Elway said Derrick never wanted to kill him, he just wanted the take the ball from him,” Peterson said. “Derrick could change the course of a game with a single play. Invariably, when we needed a sack, Derrick, he’d get it. If we needed a fumble, he’d force it or get it.” Thomas holds the Chiefs’ record with 45 forced fumbles, and in 1992 he recorded a team-record eight. He also recovered more fumbles than anybody in Chiefs history with 19, sometimes recovering the fumbles he forced with a quickness that left many offensive linemen wondering what had just zipped by. “The first step is what made Derrick so phenomenal,” said Rich Baldinger, a former Chiefs offensive lineman who played four seasons with Thomas. “His first step was so quick, and his flexibility, knowing how to drop his shoulder and turn the corner.” Although the players’ listed dimensions are similar — both 6 feet 3, with Houston listed at 258 and Thomas at 255 — they took different routes to their sacks. “Justin’s physicality is special,” Baldinger said. “So even if he doesn’t beat someone with his speed like Derrick could, he has the ability to bull-rush him. “Also, you have to account for No. 50 when you’re run-blocking. He can defeat any tight end in the league. Ain’t no tight end that’s going to block him.” Chiefs defensive coordinator Bob Sutton calls Houston an ideal power-and-speed player who brings versatility. “We move him around a lot, which really helps us from a scheme standpoint,” Sutton said. “You don’t know where he’s going to be or what he’s going to do. Sometimes he plays inside, sometimes on the right side. For a guy to be able to do that, it helps us and makes him an effective player.” One of the most important common denominators is what surrounds the two defensive playmakers. A year before the Chiefs took Thomas in the first round with the fourth overall selection, they had drafted defensive Neil Smith from Nebraska with the second overall pick. Together, Thomas and Smith grew into a dynamic duo, playing off each other. They were teammates through the 1996 season, and Smith was a first-team All-Pro once and played in five Pro Bowls with the Chiefs. Alongside Houston there’s Hali, a five-time Pro Bowler who is about to begin his 10th season. When Houston was breaking into the league, Hali absorbed the double teams. Now, it’s Houston drawing the double teams — and sometimes more. “I told Tamba, ‘Go tell (Houston) he owes you some of that money,’” said Peterson, who drafted Hali. “‘You make him better and he makes you better.’” Where the Chiefs would like to see Houston catch Thomas is in team success. Through their first four years, Thomas’ teams went to the playoffs three times. There would be three more years of playoff appearances, including the 1993 AFC championship game. In 11 seasons, Thomas played for six playoff teams and three division winners. In Houston’s four seasons, the Chiefs have appeared in one playoff game and haven’t won a division title. Houston has the sack record, and he has established himself as one of the NFL’s top players (and among its richest). Thomas’s first four years statistically were his best. Houston wants to keep rising. “How do I top last year?” Houston said. “I put last year behind me and look forward to this year. I’m going to continue to do what I do …continue to stay focused and work like I’ve been working. Nothing changes.” TALE OF THE TAPE Here’s how Justin Houston stacks up with Derrick Thomas through their first four NFL seasons: Houston Category Thomas 6 feet 3 Height 6 feet 3 258 Weight 255 59 Games played 63 48 1/2 Sacks (total) 58 22 Sacks (single-season high) 20 7 Forced fumbles 21 3 Pro Bowl selections 4
Posts: 7,232

09-02-2015, 07:38 AM	#151
the Talking Can Supporter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: street Casino cash: $10022208	Charles has averaged 5.5 yards per carry over his career...with mostly shitty coaches, OL, QB, and WRs beginning and end of argument for me __________________ Clark Hunt: "Thank god for the Dominican pool boy"
Posts: 51,585

09-02-2015, 10:10 AM	#152
ThaVirus You gotta kill a few people Join Date: Sep 2007 Casino cash: $1512369	That's a good point. In 2009, Larry Johnson averaged 2.9 YPC. In 2010 and 2011, Thomas Jones averaged 3.7 and 3.1 YPC. In 2013 and 2014, Knile Davis averaged 3.5 and 3.5 YPC. Behind those exact same offensive lines Jamaal has averaged 5.5 YPC.
Posts: 44,714

09-02-2015, 10:49 AM	#153
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $7813688	I'd take Charles over Priest from the 1 yard line to the opponents 3. Goal line situations I'd give it to Priest. DT was a better pass rusher than Houston. Houston is the better all around OLB. Much better against the run. __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
Posts: 22,396

09-02-2015, 02:08 PM	#154
Nightfyre MVP Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Helena, MT Casino cash: $3258849	Charles would score way more goal-line touchdowns behind the Roaf-Shields-Weigmann-Waters-Tait/Whoever line. Goal line TDs are all about who wins at the LOS, and guess what? The offensive line with four potential hall of famers is going to win more battles than the scrubs we have run out there for Charles.
Posts: 18,571

09-02-2015, 02:39 PM	#155
Marcellus Diablo Negro Join Date: Sep 2003 Casino cash: $2562662	JC will be a likely HOF player after his career. All you need to know. DT is a HOFer and Houston is not, yet. I hope we get that kind of play out of him.
Posts: 69,801

09-02-2015, 05:08 PM	#162
ThaVirus You gotta kill a few people Join Date: Sep 2007 Casino cash: $1512369	Take a look at any comment chain on an NFL Facebook post. Jamaal has been criminally underrated for quite some time now despite being the most consistent back in the league, aside from maybe Adrian Peterson, since 2009. He has no rushing titles, no playoff wins, no MVPs and no signature runs. He plays for a small market, he's small, and for all his speed, his playing style is far from flashy. I'd say those are the many reasons he gets overlooked.
Posts: 44,714