Chiefs Paylor: Communication, management style were factors in firing of Dorsey - Page 11

Quesadilla Joe · 03:11 PM

A lot of new information/quotes in this article...

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl...158155634.html

Spoiler!

The Chiefs have compiled a 43-21 record the last four years thanks to the work of coach Andy Reid and general manager John Dorsey, all while publicly and privately painting a picture of internal harmony and teamwork.

They managed to stay unified and on message even during tough times, like the NFL’s tampering investigation into the free-agent signing of Jeremy Maclin that led to fines and the forfeiture of draft picks.

But behind the scenes, the Chiefs’ front office did not always run smoothly under Dorsey. Team chairman Clark Hunt’s decision to fire Dorsey was fueled, in part, by concerns about his internal communication and management styles, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation who spoke to The Star on condition of anonymity.

As one of the sources said while describing how Dorsey had removed two front-office executives without much explanation: “John does stuff and doesn’t tell people why.” Another source said Dorsey’s management style “could wear on people.”

A message left with Dorsey seeking comment for this story was not immediately returned.

Dorsey’s firing was announced Thursday, the same day Reid received a contract extension. Both men had a year left on their contracts and report separately, but directly to Hunt. That structure will remain when a new GM is hired.

While sources have consistently maintained that Reid and Dorsey worked well together — “You never got the impression they were sparring,” one source told The Star — the two also had different approaches to their jobs.

While Reid has a reputation for being structured and process-oriented, Dorsey was described by those who know both men as looser.

“He goes with the flow,” one source said of Dorsey.

That style didn’t always mesh in situations outside of Dorsey’s undeniable strengths, picking and evaluating players. The other areas Dorsey oversaw were contracts and salary cap management — and the Chiefs have been in cap trouble for a while — in addition to the general, day-to-day management of the team.

“He’s not a big disciplinarian or big on chain of command,” a source said, “so people did what they wanted.”

“It’s more about his management skills,” another source added.

For instance, the typically stable Chiefs also made waves this offseason when Dorsey released director of football administration Trip MacCracken and director of pro scouting Will Lewis. Each man had been with the team for at least four years, and not only were their dismissals surprising, there weren’t many answers to be found, even inside the organization.

“Those decisions were totally John’s,” a source said. “That’s the kind of stuff he does.”

Sources also critiqued Dorsey’s management style, noting that while he was often friendly and jovial, the same tongue-in-cheek manner he used to win over most people over eventually wore on others.

“It could rub people the wrong way at times,” a source said.

Dorsey still has fans inside the Chiefs organization. They cited his passion for the game, constant availability and eye for talent as respected strengths.

“Loved working for him,” one source said. “Great dude.”

“He was always great to us …,” another source added, “You hate to see something like this happen.”

Dorsey also has a number of supporters across the league, as an overwhelming amount of league sources who dealt with him on a regular basis — approaching a dozen — told The Star.

“He was always a guy that would listen, was a pro, good to work with,” one league source said.

“One of my favorite people in 20 years in the business,” another source said. “Honest and straightforward. Man of conviction. Was shocked and sad to see the news.”

Multiple sources also called Dorsey a friend on a personal level, noting that it was not unusual for him to call just to say “hello,” even when on vacation.

“A consummate pro’s pro in negotiations,” one league source said. “Always up front and straight, and a super talent and football evaluator.”

Other league sources agreed with that notion, adding that Dorsey’s standing as an evaluator of talent remains peerless.

“He is a dyed-in-the-wool scout, loves the element of watching college players, loves breaking down film,” said Andrew Brandt, who spent 10 years as a Green Bay Packers vice president alongside Dorsey and writes for TheMMQB.com. “That always seemed like that’s what he was most happy, and most comfortable, doing.”

It’s a trait that, communication and management issues aside, many league sources believe will be difficult for the Chiefs to replace, especially on the heels of the club losing Dorsey’s talented and respected right-hand man Chris Ballard to Indianapolis five months ago. Ballard is now the Colts’ GM.

“I loved him,” one league source said of Dorsey. “Blunt, honest and a great talent evaluator. Losing him and Ballard in one offseason is insane.”

Brandt said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Chiefs prioritized talent evaluation, along with leadership and communication, with their next hire. The Chiefs are already over the projected 2018 salary cap, but there’s a widely-held belief around the league that whatever cap issues they have can be rectified in a year or two.

“We have this traditional version of an NFL GM coming from a scouting background, like John — and that’s the most popular GM model,” Brandt said. “Then there are a few coming from more of my background, which is from the financial side, about business and cap contracts. The third model is one Andy had in Philly, which is coach/GM.

“To me, the real underappreciated trait you want from a GM is leadership and communication, because the GM will be coming from one of those backgrounds and will need to communicate seamlessly with what he’s not an expert at. Teams sometimes rush to sign an expert in one area while maybe not taking into account the necessity for communication in other areas.”

Warpaint69 · 06-26-2017, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Luthor

I guess I missed all of those Super Bowls that Dorsey delivered here.

I missed all the Super Bowls the Hunts delivered.

Eleazar · 06-26-2017, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpaint69

I missed all the Super Bowls the Hunts delivered.

I missed all the Super Bowls that Andy Reid has won.

RunKC · 06-26-2017, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

A theory that's kind of been hinted at, but not explicitly stated, is that Clark wants to work with guys that he personally likes. As we saw at the draft with the awkward fist bump, perhaps Clark doesn't really enjoy spending time with gum-chewing, film-watching football guys, and he likes hanging out with MBA types. Pioli is more of an MBA type, which is why he lasted so long despite terrible results and an organizational culture that was far worse than anything we're hearing about Dorsey. When you own the team, you can do whatever you want to make yourself happy.

I've thought about this a lot as well. Veach is apparently a "sharp guy" who is far more structured like Andy. Very type A while Dorsey is a type B kind of personality.

rtmike · 06-26-2017, 10:06 AM

It seems to me Dorsey is a lot like these coordinators who never make it as a head coach .
(R. Crennel, W. PHILLIPS?)

_
Ballard: GM
Dorsey: Director of player personnel.

Now this combination would most likely ROCK, wouldn't last.

**wazu** · 06-26-2017, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HemiEd

Those weren't warts, they were outright boils with puss oozing out of them.

The Chiefs went 12-4 last year. 12 win teams aren't usually just flush with cap space. Dorsey kills it in the draft and then follows up with bargain free agents every year. That results in plenty of wins with whatever cap space issues we have.

DaWolf · 06-26-2017, 12:37 PM

Benjamin Allbright indicated the other night on the Locked on Chiefs podcast (so take it for what you feel his sources are worth) that his understanding from sources in the org is that this was pushed by Reid and it was a him or me thing with Reid, and ownership is basically publicly selling this as a Clark Hunt decision to cover for Reid. Apparently the Maclin thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. Again, take it for what it is worth, but the timeline at least makes sense with Reid finalizing his deal the same day Dorsey gets canned. I doubt Clark does this on his own given that he wants stability, that the timing on this is horrible, and that Clark could have made this call a long time ago if he was not satisfied with the direction of football ops. It makes sense though if you look at it as Reid telling Hunt he's out unless Dorsey is gone. If Veach gets the job, then I think it becomes more obvious than ever, if it wasn't already, as to who is running this thing.

Again, could be wrong, but that's one theory out there...

**Rausch** · 06-26-2017, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtmike

It seems to me Dorsey is a lot like these coordinators who never make it as a head coach .

When was Dorsey ever a coordinator?

Eleazar · 06-26-2017, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

Benjamin Allbright indicated the other night on the Locked on Chiefs podcast (so take it for what you feel his sources are worth) that his understanding from sources in the org is that this was pushed by Reid and it was a him or me thing with Reid, and ownership is basically publicly selling this as a Clark Hunt decision to cover for Reid.

Again - this is the only thing that really makes sense.

**Rausch** · 06-26-2017, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

Again - this is the only thing that really makes sense.

I don't get this.

Why would Andy want more power when Dorsey clearly built a Reid team?

DaWolf · 06-26-2017, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

When was Dorsey ever a coordinator?

Probably means he's a great Director of College Scouting but didn't have all the tools to be a great GM outside of the scouting side.

I think Dorsey could have benefited from being the GM in an organization that had a resident of Football Operations or something. He just focuses on roster building and other guys focus on the cap and contracts.

Someone brought up the other day something that may have some merit to it if you dig into it. It alluded to if Dorsey's style was not good, then perhaps his boss' style was not good either. Meaning that if there was dysfunction, that ultimately goes up to the owner, who these guys report to, and who should be setting the tone and expectation within the organization. We've already had a situation in which Pioli and Haley hated each other, and now we have a case of best case Dorsey running a loose ship, worst case he and Reid had some kind of a falling out. That's something Hunt needs to sense and sort out. I worry that him being in Texas rather than in KC full time could have something to do with the lack of stability in the front office...

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-26-2017, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

Again - this is the only thing that really makes sense.

Bullshit.

And Allbright is a ****ing moron, which of course, explains why you'd agree with him.

Either you're a worse troll than GoChiefs or you're just dumb as ****.

**DaneMcCloud** · 06-26-2017, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaWolf

I think Dorsey could have benefited from being the GM in an organization that had a resident of Football Operations or something. He just focuses on roster building and other guys focus on the cap and contracts.

Good ****ing grief

Trip MacCracken: Director Football Operations

MacCracken enters his third year as the Chiefs Director of Football Administration. He arrived in Kansas City after spending 11 seasons with Cleveland (1999-09), where his duties included contract negotiations, as well as other responsibilities in football operations. During his tenure with the Browns, he served as Legal Counsel (2009), Director of Football Administration (2006-08), Salary Cap Coordinator (2001-05) and Salary Cap Administrator (1999-00).

http://www.chiefs.com/team/staff/tri...1-2752bbac88dc

staylor26 · 06-26-2017, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

Again - this is the only thing that really makes sense.

Yea to you because you're anti-Reid so it fits your agenda. How convenient.

O.city · 06-26-2017, 01:00 PM

Nothing else makes sense as to actually firing the guy. The cap stuff sucks but is that enough to fire someone who was as good at talent evaluation?

DaWolf · 06-26-2017, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rausch

I don't get this.

Why would Andy want more power when Dorsey clearly built a Reid team?

Not really about more power, it sounded like it was about moves being made that Reid didn't agree with. So this shouldn't be confused with power over the roster, because I think that now that we see what has happened, it seems clear that Reid didn't have final say over the personnel, just strong input. So what was brought up was that things like getting rid of Jaye Howard, who was a Reid favorite, were among the things that started straining things. There was allusion to a lot of personnel moves being made that Reid wasn't appreciative of. The Maclin thing was the "straw that broke the camel's back" according to the report, especially since Maclin was willing to rework his deal, but the front office never approached him to do it.

So the "power" in this case would be Reid leveraging his coaching prowess against Dorsey when contracts came up, and saying to Clark that he was out if Dorsey wasn't, because that relationship was now broken. So Clark had to choose between the coaching staff vs front office. But based on all of this, I think this had a lot more to do with free agency and how the vets were handled than it had to do with building a Reid team through the draft...

06-25-2017, 02:52 PM
Quesadilla Joe Abolish The Salary Cap! Join Date: Mar 2008 Casino cash: $3848675	Paylor: Communication, management style were factors in firing of Dorsey A lot of new information/quotes in this article... http://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl...158155634.html Spoiler! The Chiefs have compiled a 43-21 record the last four years thanks to the work of coach Andy Reid and general manager John Dorsey, all while publicly and privately painting a picture of internal harmony and teamwork. They managed to stay unified and on message even during tough times, like the NFL’s tampering investigation into the free-agent signing of Jeremy Maclin that led to fines and the forfeiture of draft picks. But behind the scenes, the Chiefs’ front office did not always run smoothly under Dorsey. Team chairman Clark Hunt’s decision to fire Dorsey was fueled, in part, by concerns about his internal communication and management styles, according to multiple sources with knowledge of the situation who spoke to The Star on condition of anonymity. As one of the sources said while describing how Dorsey had removed two front-office executives without much explanation: “John does stuff and doesn’t tell people why.” Another source said Dorsey’s management style “could wear on people.” A message left with Dorsey seeking comment for this story was not immediately returned. Dorsey’s firing was announced Thursday, the same day Reid received a contract extension. Both men had a year left on their contracts and report separately, but directly to Hunt. That structure will remain when a new GM is hired. While sources have consistently maintained that Reid and Dorsey worked well together — “You never got the impression they were sparring,” one source told The Star — the two also had different approaches to their jobs. While Reid has a reputation for being structured and process-oriented, Dorsey was described by those who know both men as looser. “He goes with the flow,” one source said of Dorsey. That style didn’t always mesh in situations outside of Dorsey’s undeniable strengths, picking and evaluating players. The other areas Dorsey oversaw were contracts and salary cap management — and the Chiefs have been in cap trouble for a while — in addition to the general, day-to-day management of the team. “He’s not a big disciplinarian or big on chain of command,” a source said, “so people did what they wanted.” “It’s more about his management skills,” another source added. For instance, the typically stable Chiefs also made waves this offseason when Dorsey released director of football administration Trip MacCracken and director of pro scouting Will Lewis. Each man had been with the team for at least four years, and not only were their dismissals surprising, there weren’t many answers to be found, even inside the organization. “Those decisions were totally John’s,” a source said. “That’s the kind of stuff he does.” Sources also critiqued Dorsey’s management style, noting that while he was often friendly and jovial, the same tongue-in-cheek manner he used to win over most people over eventually wore on others. “It could rub people the wrong way at times,” a source said. Dorsey still has fans inside the Chiefs organization. They cited his passion for the game, constant availability and eye for talent as respected strengths. “Loved working for him,” one source said. “Great dude.” “He was always great to us …,” another source added, “You hate to see something like this happen.” Dorsey also has a number of supporters across the league, as an overwhelming amount of league sources who dealt with him on a regular basis — approaching a dozen — told The Star. “He was always a guy that would listen, was a pro, good to work with,” one league source said. “One of my favorite people in 20 years in the business,” another source said. “Honest and straightforward. Man of conviction. Was shocked and sad to see the news.” Multiple sources also called Dorsey a friend on a personal level, noting that it was not unusual for him to call just to say “hello,” even when on vacation. “A consummate pro’s pro in negotiations,” one league source said. “Always up front and straight, and a super talent and football evaluator.” Other league sources agreed with that notion, adding that Dorsey’s standing as an evaluator of talent remains peerless. “He is a dyed-in-the-wool scout, loves the element of watching college players, loves breaking down film,” said Andrew Brandt, who spent 10 years as a Green Bay Packers vice president alongside Dorsey and writes for TheMMQB.com. “That always seemed like that’s what he was most happy, and most comfortable, doing.” It’s a trait that, communication and management issues aside, many league sources believe will be difficult for the Chiefs to replace, especially on the heels of the club losing Dorsey’s talented and respected right-hand man Chris Ballard to Indianapolis five months ago. Ballard is now the Colts’ GM. “I loved him,” one league source said of Dorsey. “Blunt, honest and a great talent evaluator. Losing him and Ballard in one offseason is insane.” Brandt said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Chiefs prioritized talent evaluation, along with leadership and communication, with their next hire. The Chiefs are already over the projected 2018 salary cap, but there’s a widely-held belief around the league that whatever cap issues they have can be rectified in a year or two. “We have this traditional version of an NFL GM coming from a scouting background, like John — and that’s the most popular GM model,” Brandt said. “Then there are a few coming from more of my background, which is from the financial side, about business and cap contracts. The third model is one Andy had in Philly, which is coach/GM. “To me, the real underappreciated trait you want from a GM is leadership and communication, because the GM will be coming from one of those backgrounds and will need to communicate seamlessly with what he’s not an expert at. Teams sometimes rush to sign an expert in one area while maybe not taking into account the necessity for communication in other areas.” Last edited by Quesadilla Joe; 06-25-2017 at 03:11 PM..
Posts: 19,807

06-26-2017, 10:06 AM	#154
rtmike union paraplegic organizer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: western Kansas Casino cash: $9094600	It seems to me Dorsey is a lot like these coordinators who never make it as a head coach . (R. Crennel, W. PHILLIPS?) _ Ballard: GM Dorsey: Director of player personnel. Now this combination would most likely ROCK, wouldn't last. __________________ I like to sleep For I'm walking in my dreams. Live life like every DAY is your last!
Posts: 3,097

06-26-2017, 12:37 PM	#156
DaWolf Cry havoc... Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $10007725	Benjamin Allbright indicated the other night on the Locked on Chiefs podcast (so take it for what you feel his sources are worth) that his understanding from sources in the org is that this was pushed by Reid and it was a him or me thing with Reid, and ownership is basically publicly selling this as a Clark Hunt decision to cover for Reid. Apparently the Maclin thing was the straw that broke the camel's back. Again, take it for what it is worth, but the timeline at least makes sense with Reid finalizing his deal the same day Dorsey gets canned. I doubt Clark does this on his own given that he wants stability, that the timing on this is horrible, and that Clark could have made this call a long time ago if he was not satisfied with the direction of football ops. It makes sense though if you look at it as Reid telling Hunt he's out unless Dorsey is gone. If Veach gets the job, then I think it becomes more obvious than ever, if it wasn't already, as to who is running this thing. Again, could be wrong, but that's one theory out there...
Posts: 6,798

06-26-2017, 01:00 PM	#164
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $2364064	Nothing else makes sense as to actually firing the guy. The cap stuff sucks but is that enough to fire someone who was as good at talent evaluation?
Posts: 81,572