Cardinals ****Official 2014 STL Cardinals thread **** - Page 8

**BigRedChief** · 02:36 PM

2011 WS Championship
2012 one win from another WS
2013 two wins from another WS title
2014?

This is a franchise that has made the postseason 10 times in the last 14 seasons.
Reached three World Series in the last decade, and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.
Our new Manager has more post season experience than any other manager in baseball, except the Giants manager.
Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.
60 post season wins since 2004. 20+ wins more than any other team.
Only one of the last 14 seasons has been a losing one.

**BigRedChief** · 11-20-2013, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I'm with you on the pursuit of Hardy. I've been banging that drum for two years.

You would give up Miller for him?

'Hamas' Jenkins · 11-20-2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

You would give up Miller for him?

Nyet.

DJ's left nut · 11-20-2013, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Escobar was a garbage ass, disrespectful mother****er and absolutely toxic in the clubhouse. He had a career year last year. Bemoaning Mozeliak for not pursuing him is revisionist history. We had enough Felipe Lopez-esque dickheads in the past.

I'm with you on the pursuit of Hardy. I've been banging that drum for two years. But the truth is that for all of Profar's perceived value, the Rangers decided to keep Andrus at short for the next eight years. That's not an insignificant statement, and they wanted a lot for either one, and Elvis would provide little-to-no surplus value with that contract.

You can plug that hole for a few years with a Peralta, Erick Aybar, or buy low on Assdribble Cabrera.

In my defense, I wanted Escobar last offseason and I'd imagine it can be found in this thread. Escobar was a good player in Atlanta and a plus defender. We had Pete !@#$ing Kozma. Sorry, but that was a no-brainer to me. You may disagree, but this isn't revisionist history from me, I wanted the guy.

And I think I've made this point already in this thread (or the end of the last one) but what is the point in plugging the hole for a few years? We have literally nobody on the farm. Hell, the one guy that may have had a shot at making it, Peoples-Walls, just got moved to the OF along with Piscotty and Carson Kelly (or other legitimate prospect for the left side of the IF). Evidently the organization is just giving up on the IF altogether and is going to stockpile arms and OFers.

They appear to have no plan for the most important position on a major league diamond. It's just a complete mind-****.

veist · 11-20-2013, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

You would give up Miller for him?

You'd be giving up a lot relative to what you're getting if you gave them Lynn or Kelly for him.

**BigRedChief** · 11-20-2013, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veist

You'd be giving up a lot relative to what you're getting if you gave them Lynn or Kelly for him.

Agree. Lynn or Kelly should be plenty for Hardy. That would still be a lopsided trade.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 11-21-2013, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

In my defense, I wanted Escobar last offseason and I'd imagine it can be found in this thread. Escobar was a good player in Atlanta and a plus defender. We had Pete !@#$ing Kozma. Sorry, but that was a no-brainer to me. You may disagree, but this isn't revisionist history from me, I wanted the guy.

And I think I've made this point already in this thread (or the end of the last one) but what is the point in plugging the hole for a few years? We have literally nobody on the farm. Hell, the one guy that may have had a shot at making it, Peoples-Walls, just got moved to the OF along with Piscotty and Carson Kelly (or other legitimate prospect for the left side of the IF). Evidently the organization is just giving up on the IF altogether and is going to stockpile arms and OFers.

They appear to have no plan for the most important position on a major league diamond. It's just a complete mind-****.

We have so many assets and so many needs. They can't plug every hole with an All-Star, and it's not just the Cardinals who are wanting for shortstop. It's a hard position to find. It'd be nice if they were better at finding one, but you don't always locate a 10 year solution at every position, even if you really want to.

The Red Sox did nothing but plug holes for years with marginal players at short after they traded Hanley for Beckett.

It's not ideal, but a two-three year fix may leave the team in better shape than what it would take to get a five-seven year fix.

**BigRedChief** · 11-21-2013, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

They appear to have no plan for the most important position on a major league diamond. It's just a complete mind-****.

I disagree. I think young stud pitching is the most valuable trade bait. It's hard to get. It's hard to develop. Injuries, head cases litter the road from the minors to the big show.

It seems cyclical to me. It's only recently that the SS role have increased in value. At the same time is seems that top flight SS talent has lessen in available numbers. Which would explain the first statement. How many great SS's are there in baseball?

**BigRedChief** · 11-21-2013, 01:07 AM

40 man roster out. We are only protecting 36 players. They are thinking of picking up 4 players?

Player Position B/T DOB
PITCHERS
John Axford RHP R/R 4/01/1983
Keith Butler RHP R/R 1/30/1989
Randy Choate LHP L/L 9/05/1975
Eric Fornataro RHP R/R 1/02/1988
Sam Freeman LHP R/L 6/24/1987
Jaime Garcia LHP L/L 7/08/1986
Joe Kelly RHP R/R 6/09/1988
Lance Lynn RHP R/R 5/12/1987
Tyler Lyons LHP S/L 2/21/1988
Seth Maness RHP R/R 10/14/1988
Carlos Martinez RHP R/R 9/21/1991
Shelby Miller RHP R/R 10/10/1990
Jason Motte RHP R/R 6/22/1982
Jorge Rondon RHP R/R 2/16/1988
Trevor Rosenthal RHP R/R 5/29/1990
Fernando Salas RHP R/R 5/30/1985
Kevin Siegrist LHP L/L 7/20/1989
Michael Wacha RHP R/R 7/01/1991
Adam Wainwright RHP R/R 8/30/1981
CATCHERS
Tony Cruz C R/R 8/18/1986
Yadier Molina C R/R 7/13/1982
Audry Perez C R/R 12/23/1988
INFIELDERS
Matt Adams 1B L/R 8/31/1988
Matt Carpenter IF L/R 11/26/1985
Allen Craig 1B R/R 7/18/1984
Daniel Descalso 2B L/R 10/19/1986
David Freese 3B R/R 4/28/1983
Greg Garcia SS L/R 8/08/1989
Pete Kozma SS R/R 4/11/1988
Kolten Wong 2B L/R 10/10/1990
OUTFIELDERS
Joey Butler OF R/R 3/12/1986
Matt Holliday LF R/R 1/15/1980
Jon Jay CF L/L 3/15/1985
Mike O’Neill LF L/L 2/12/1988
Shane Robinson OF R/R 10/30/1984
Oscar Taveras OF L/L 6/19/1992

'Hamas' Jenkins · 11-21-2013, 01:17 AM

They could just be trying to unclog the pipe somewhat by making prospects with middling upside eligible for the Rule 5 draft next month, and to perhaps snag a Rule 5 eligible player that they have an eye on.

O.city · 11-21-2013, 07:34 AM

@Ken_Rosenthal: Source: #Rangers remain open to trading Andrus or Profar in right deal. So, talks with #STLCards or for #Rays' Price still possible.

Marco Polo · 11-21-2013, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

@Ken_Rosenthal: Source: #Rangers remain open to trading Andrus or Profar in right deal. So, talks with #STLCards or for #Rays' Price still possible.

1. Profar
1B. Andrus

whoman69 · 11-21-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

@Ken_Rosenthal: Source: #Rangers remain open to trading Andrus or Profar in right deal. So, talks with #STLCards or for #Rays' Price still possible.

I can't believe that unless they think they're getting too much value for the player

Marco Polo · 11-21-2013, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoman69

I can't believe that unless they think they're getting too much value for the player

My only thought is that they still need pitching in the worst way. I bet they prefer to trade Andrus just because of his contract but I would prefer a cost controlled SS for years (Profar), even if it means giving up a little more.

DJ's left nut · 11-21-2013, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

My only thought is that they still need pitching in the worst way. I bet they prefer to trade Andrus just because of his contract but I would prefer a cost controlled SS for years (Profar), even if it means giving up a little more.

We keep saying that, but do they really?

Darvish
Holland
Martin Perez

That's a pretty good 1-3 so you're really looking at 4 and 5 for them. So even setting aside what they have at the positions, is it worth trading a premier middle-infielder for a 4th/5th starter? No, not really. The value added to the team at that point isn't significant enough.

But beyond that, the Rangers are in pretty good shape at 4 and 5 anyway. Ogando and Harrison are the likely candidates. Ogando's been a nice starter at several points throughout his career and can likely be counted on for about 180 innings and an ERA in the 4.3 range. Matt Harrison went 32-20 in 2011-2012 before having some injury issues in 2013. He's a #3 starter on a lot of teams and would be a 4 in Texas.

Then you have Colby Lewis and Neftali Feliz as #6 and #7 options in case Harrison isn't healthy, though most accounts suggest he should be fine. Colby Lewis has become a very nice pitcher, another potential #3 that would be slotted as a 4/5 in Texas. Feliz has ace stuff, though he has to recover from TJ surgery (and not get moved into the bullpen).

The Rangers don't really need starting pitching as bad as we think they do.

They're really not that great of a trade partner when it gets down to it. Unless we're willing to trade them Taveras (I'm not), I don't see them moving either of those guys. When they had a surplus of IFers, perhaps they'd have been willing to take the best offer they could get. At that time, Miller may have been worth doing.

Now, however, they don't. They don't have Cano signed (and they won't get him; Jay Z isn't sending Cano to the Rangers) and they don't have a desperate need for SP.

The dream is dead, folks. Prepare for the path of least resistance: Stephen Drew.

Marco Polo · 11-21-2013, 11:03 AM

Updated MLB Talk Rumors:

LA radio station is saying that a Freese to Anaheim deal is almost certain to happen. Rumor is that we could get back Aybar in return. He's not a jawdropper but it'd be an upgrade at SS. Would love to add Lynn and get Bourjos as well as a fourth OF to spell Craig and Taveras.

11-04-2013, 05:32 PM
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3229627 VARSITY	**Official 2014 STL Cardinals thread ** 2011 WS Championship 2012 one win from another WS 2013 two wins from another WS title 2014? This is a franchise that has made the postseason 10 times in the last 14 seasons. Reached three World Series in the last decade, and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005. Our new Manager has more post season experience than any other manager in baseball, except the Giants manager. Three million attendance? Take it to the bank. 60 post season wins since 2004. 20+ wins more than any other team. Only one of the last 14 seasons has been a losing one. Last edited by BigRedChief; 01-19-2014 at 02:36 PM..
Posts: 78,934

11-21-2013, 01:07 AM	#113
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $3229627 VARSITY	40 man roster out. We are only protecting 36 players. They are thinking of picking up 4 players? Player Position B/T DOB PITCHERS John Axford RHP R/R 4/01/1983 Keith Butler RHP R/R 1/30/1989 Randy Choate LHP L/L 9/05/1975 Eric Fornataro RHP R/R 1/02/1988 Sam Freeman LHP R/L 6/24/1987 Jaime Garcia LHP L/L 7/08/1986 Joe Kelly RHP R/R 6/09/1988 Lance Lynn RHP R/R 5/12/1987 Tyler Lyons LHP S/L 2/21/1988 Seth Maness RHP R/R 10/14/1988 Carlos Martinez RHP R/R 9/21/1991 Shelby Miller RHP R/R 10/10/1990 Jason Motte RHP R/R 6/22/1982 Jorge Rondon RHP R/R 2/16/1988 Trevor Rosenthal RHP R/R 5/29/1990 Fernando Salas RHP R/R 5/30/1985 Kevin Siegrist LHP L/L 7/20/1989 Michael Wacha RHP R/R 7/01/1991 Adam Wainwright RHP R/R 8/30/1981 CATCHERS Tony Cruz C R/R 8/18/1986 Yadier Molina C R/R 7/13/1982 Audry Perez C R/R 12/23/1988 INFIELDERS Matt Adams 1B L/R 8/31/1988 Matt Carpenter IF L/R 11/26/1985 Allen Craig 1B R/R 7/18/1984 Daniel Descalso 2B L/R 10/19/1986 David Freese 3B R/R 4/28/1983 Greg Garcia SS L/R 8/08/1989 Pete Kozma SS R/R 4/11/1988 Kolten Wong 2B L/R 10/10/1990 OUTFIELDERS Joey Butler OF R/R 3/12/1986 Matt Holliday LF R/R 1/15/1980 Jon Jay CF L/L 3/15/1985 Mike O’Neill LF L/L 2/12/1988 Shane Robinson OF R/R 10/30/1984 Oscar Taveras OF L/L 6/19/1992 __________________ Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. -YODA
Posts: 78,934

11-21-2013, 01:17 AM	#114
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $8019572	They could just be trying to unclog the pipe somewhat by making prospects with middling upside eligible for the Rule 5 draft next month, and to perhaps snag a Rule 5 eligible player that they have an eye on. __________________ "When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.”--Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 74,820

11-21-2013, 07:34 AM	#115
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $2834064	@Ken_Rosenthal: Source: #Rangers remain open to trading Andrus or Profar in right deal. So, talks with #STLCards or for #Rays' Price still possible.
Posts: 81,172

11-21-2013, 11:03 AM	#120
Marco Polo Veteran Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: 41°59.4′N 87°39.6'W Casino cash: $5838908	Updated MLB Talk Rumors: LA radio station is saying that a Freese to Anaheim deal is almost certain to happen. Rumor is that we could get back Aybar in return. He's not a jawdropper but it'd be an upgrade at SS. Would love to add Lynn and get Bourjos as well as a fourth OF to spell Craig and Taveras.
Posts: 2,506